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Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
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Author:  RickJ [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
While trading and drafting continue to be crucial to team success, I am struck by how successfully Collingwood has developed some very ordinary players over the last year or two.

Macaffer, Reid, Toovey, Blair, Goldsack, Dawes, Brown.

Come on! That these players are likely to play in a premiership side beggars belief!

Gotta hand it to the Pies for how they have managed to develop these dribblers. And I dont think going to Arizona for 2 weeks in the off season is the explanation.

Collingwood are clearly the best coached and best drilled team in the competition. These lesser lights have been indoctrinated into a brilliant and highly effective game plan. Repetitive drill work means that they dont have to think. When they get the ball they respond automatically to do A B and C, and this covers any intrinisic decision making and athletic weaknesses the player may have. When you are doing the same things repetitively with some very good players around you, confidence grows and in a short space of time Dud A becomes Very Handy Player A. Shits me that they have managed to do this, but they havent had high draft picks for a number of years and apart from Jolly and Ball they have hardly recruited any ready-made guns. They have had to develop them, and they do this with additional separate training for the younger group, and very impressive repetitive drilling.

Can we learn from this? Do we have a solid enough primary game plan to stick with so that our developing young players can be drilled like robots into responding automatically. Of course the truly great players instinctively know what to do and almost always make the right decisions, but for the lesser lights and players new to the club, indoctrination seems to be one key. I'm sure all clubs do this to some degree. But dont tell me that the players above are more talented than many of our lesser lights. Or that their stars (Swan, Didak, Pendlebury, Maxwell, Jolly) are substantially better than our stars (Judd, Murphy, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Waite, Simpson).

It's their coaching and game plan drilling, and how they have developed their peripheral players.

How can we learn from them? Your thoughts?
Author:  Wangers [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
22 contributors - no reliance on a few players. You don't contribute, MM drops you and brings someone in that's hungrier.

Simple really.
Author:  RickJ [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
I also noticed a very interesting pre-game warm up prior to the Coll Carl game on July 31 that speaks to the types of automatic drilling they do so well in games

Carlton were doing their usual relaxed run throughs, criss cross handball drills, and kicking for goal.

Collingwood had players in groups of 7 tightly bunched (four against three with vests) practising pack extraction and rapid fire bang bang bang short handballs in a game of keepings off.

Given that part of their game plan involves out-numbering the opposition in contested ball situations, hands on the ball first, then several short sharp handballs to clear the pack, I was impressed at how automatic it all seemed and what a great reflex warm up it was.

A Collingwood mate says they do this warmup all the time.

Obviously this warm up is not rocket science or even especially unique. But more and more football is going the way of set plays, and if players are well drilled in set plays then even ordinary players can make a significant contribution and play better than they are.

I think it was Ross Lyon who said last year that it didnt matter who played in the StKilda backline their structures were such that any of his group could just slot in.

My point is that repetitive drilling is particularly useful for the ordinary player, reducing the chance that faulty judgement or less than perfect skills will bring the play undone.
I sense this is part of the reason why the Collingwood peripheral players have come on so well.
Author:  DocSherrin III [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
We do that warmup too Rick. I wouldn't have thought it was a case of Macaffer, Reid, Toovey, Blair, Goldsack, Dawes and Brown being ordinary - more a case of them understanding their role very well and being able to perform it consistently. Malthouse has these blokes playing to their strengths. Toovey - for example, is super quick and very clever peeling off the outside of the pack which is largely ignored by the opposition who are too focused on Pendlebury and Swan.

It means a few of these guys are sacrificing the game they played as a junior for the game the coach wants them to play. That indicates to me that they're very coachable. They've a desire to play footy at the highest level. Pretty smart thinking that. A few of our blokes could go a long way adopting the same mantra.
Author:  Stefchook [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
I agree they're a very well drilled side. And see to have done a terrific job in recent years with their development of players.

However, let's not exaggerate. Reid was a first round pick. And so were both Nathan Brown and Leigh Brown (wasn't sure which you were referring to).
Author:  get rid of the hacks [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Re dawes - they have 3 monsters physically playing fwd.

Imagine copping 3rd banana when ur built like Johnno Brown.
Author:  blue4 [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
I concur, Malthouse is a superior coach... plays his blokes to their strengths according to kicking skills, clearances, vision, pace, strength etc...you don't see GF sides having poor disposal gimps in the HB line for example... nor don't you have poor talls that can't take a grab outside the attacking 50m. Their flanks have huge engines that run up and down all day creating options..and they generally play for their mates.
Author:  ThePsychologist [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Bugger Collingwood. Look at what Roos gets out of so called average players. McGlynn, Kennedy, Grundy, Bolton, Pyke, Mumford have all improved dramatically under Roos. Even Kirk was going to dumped before Roos got there. Worked pretty out well I believe!

If we could get 10-20% improvement across the board and in particular guys like Austin, Hampson, Casboult, Browne, Anderson, Armfield, Robinson, Ellard, Yarran, Bower, Walker Henderson, Tuohy, White, Kerr we could be anything.
Author:  Drewgirl [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Dies anyone think we pidgeon hole our players , by not trying them in a range of positions before settling them down.?

Brown - back pocket instead of midfield or forward
Anderson - same
Walker - should be playing forward not back
Johnson - try midfield or defensive forward not back
Thornton - always wanted to play forward but no really been given a chance
Garlett/ yarn - hope we try them as midfielders

I know some guys don't have a big tank, but have a look at them in different positions and then go from there.

I heard them speak to hard wick last week about the successful move of Morton to midfield as he was not playing well up forward. He was languishing in the reserves before that.
Author:  RickJ [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
[quote="ThePsychologist"]Bugger Collingwood. Look at what Roos gets out of so called average players. McGlynn, Kennedy, Grundy, Bolton, Pyke, Mumford have all improved dramatically under Roos. Even Kirk was going to dumped before Roos got there. Worked pretty out well I believe!

If we could get 10-20% improvement across the board and in particular guys like Austin, Hampson, Casboult, Browne, Anderson, Armfield, Robinson, Ellard, Yarran, Bower, Walker Henderson, Tuohy, White, Kerr we could be anything.[/quote

Point well made Psych

As they say its not the top 6 players who win you premierships its the bottom 6. (Although the best sides still need need a small number of absolute guns who can turn nothing into something against the flow)

Roos and Malthouse and their staffs have done a super job getting the best out of players who previously would have been considered ordinary. How to best do it is the $64,000 question in football and the answer we're all looking for. With limited drafting opportunities over the next few years this is going to be even more important.

We should be putting every conceivable effort into player development, thinking laterally about their strengths and possibilities, and focussing on the list we have rather than the players from outside we would like to have. We should have enough raw talent on our list. Watching Levi Casboult in the Bullants game against Williamstown on Saturday makes one realise here is one raw boned recruit who could and should be developed into something special. For me the players above apart from Austin and Browne fall into the same category. And that is probably being a bit harsh on these two given the arguments which Drewgirl makes above
Author:  MIL [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Great post RJ. Malthouse is a master coach, and his tactics/methods are the reason the Filth are on the verge of a long stretch at the top that (sadly) should net them a few flags :cry:

Good article in the age today too about Mick changing tactics half way through last year - and they've hardly been beaten since. Ratts still has the Ps on, and has a bit of work to do to get anywhere near Malthouse, but that's not to say he can't improve pretty quickly. Recruiting a good assistant coach would help a lot.
Author:  Dominator_7 [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Pumping money into quality assistant coaches and youth deveopment is the way to go... We have to look beyond old style Carlton method of just 'luring a big fish to solve all our problems' type solution.
Author:  BigKev [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
MIL wrote:
Great post RJ. Malthouse is a master coach, and his tactics/methods are the reason the Filth are on the verge of a long stretch at the top that (sadly) should net them a few flags :cry:

Good article in the age today too about Mick changing tactics half way through last year - and they've hardly been beaten since. Ratts still has the Ps on, and has a bit of work to do to get anywhere near Malthouse, but that's not to say he can't improve pretty quickly. Recruiting a good assistant coach would help a lot.


Well allow me to retort ... :wink:

Master coach my ass. This prick has had the best resourced, most advantaged football club in Australia for over a decade and he still hasn't delivered a flag. I admit that they're favourites in this, his 11th year there, but they haven't done it yet, ( go ... everyone else but them).

What Collingwood do do very very well is manage their publicity. If I hear one more time about what a great job Malthouse does with an "average" list I'm gonna throw up. Do they pay less than 100% of the cap? I don't think so. So what are people saying; that they're overpaying a truckload of duds? And anyway, who built the list?

Malthouse now holds the record for the longest time coaching a club without delivering a flag and everyone goes around nodding wisely what a great coach he is. Yeah right.
Author:  Donstuie [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Giving us a lesson on how to play with some balls
Author:  Megaman [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Donstuie wrote:
Giving us a lesson on how to play with some balls

So is Bruce
Author:  jt [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
BigKev wrote:
MIL wrote:
Great post RJ. Malthouse is a master coach, and his tactics/methods are the reason the Filth are on the verge of a long stretch at the top that (sadly) should net them a few flags :cry:

Good article in the age today too about Mick changing tactics half way through last year - and they've hardly been beaten since. Ratts still has the Ps on, and has a bit of work to do to get anywhere near Malthouse, but that's not to say he can't improve pretty quickly. Recruiting a good assistant coach would help a lot.


Well allow me to retort ... :wink:

Master coach my ass. This prick has had the best resourced, most advantaged football club in Australia for over a decade and he still hasn't delivered a flag. I admit that they're favourites in this, his 11th year there, but they haven't done it yet, ( go ... everyone else but them).

What Collingwood do do very very well is manage their publicity. If I hear one more time about what a great job Malthouse does with an "average" list I'm gonna throw up. Do they pay less than 100% of the cap? I don't think so. So what are people saying; that they're overpaying a truckload of duds? And anyway, who built the list?

Malthouse now holds the record for the longest time coaching a club without delivering a flag and everyone goes around nodding wisely what a great coach he is. Yeah right.


Valid point but it was only a few years ago that Collingwood was considered to have no stars. No Premierships is a big thing but its not like its been through a lack of opportunity...Collingwood have only missed the 8 like once since he's been coach (and they got Thomas and Pendlebury, not a bad time to bottom out) and they were in the GF in 2002 and 2003 and are back there 7 yeas later...not bad at all
Author:  club29 [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
The 08' 09 pre season the pies developed a game plan. One the stole from the saints and hawks which put a great emphasis on the way the team manipulated space. They got the rolling zone going that allowed the opposition no space and pretty much choked the living daylights out of the opposition and then punished them on the rebound and used the boundary which is unique to them which probably suited them as all teams were flooding corridors.

The start of 09' they didnt use this gameplan and at the time they were dealing with a lot of injuries. Like when we smashed them last year. That day it looked like they conceded defeat and focused on crowding the ball to limit damage. From that game on though they started getting players back and a shift in their game style was noted. They started choking teams and then running over them and recorded ten goal win after ten goal win.

The gameplan is excellent for the modern game. The players doing the work are not great players but they have been coached to do their roles and each line has someone experienced and strong to make sure the business is done.
I am not sure a lot of their players would be good in any other set ups than collingwoods.

Then there is the draw. While they played hard teams twice which they are keen to point out they also didnt have to travel in the two months of the season. No disruptions. Even the traveling they did at the start of the year was always followed with a nice rest and soft opposition 8 days later.On top of that they got to play all their games in the last 2 month period on the same ground. THe ground where finals will be played. THis got them confident and beating them there is as hard as beating Swans on SCG.
Malthouse and the players must have pissed himself laughing when he first saw the 2010 draw.

Once they were set in the top four they had time to rest players, to load players up on training and really set them up for the finals.

They have the flag in the bag. Our only hope is that footy nerd Ross Lyon has a plan on how to beat their zone which is similar to his own. Fingers crossed.

I am not gonna stick around to see how he goes. Camping next weekend will fun.
Author:  Siegfried [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
I hate to say this, but there are lessons at all levels from Collingwood. They do everything well. Maguire has done an amazing job with that club.

They have money coming out of their ears (even allowing for the stuff up with the pubs), they have record membership, they have elite facilities, they have a fully resourced football department, they have the best of the best of everything the players need, they have a fabulous coach, they have assistants and development coaches who seem to be doing an amazing job with the players, and the results finally are starting to show. And it is all down to the President.

The fish rots at the head has been used many times of late on this site, but it is true. So too is it true that a successful club is strong from the very top down. Look at the recent Premiership clubs:

Geelong - transformed from basket case to on and off field power by Costa and Cook
Hawthorn - were able to turn things around through Decisive action from the board (trading player for picks) and Kennett's job should not be underestimated. The Tassie deal is gold for them
WC - were strong off-field, but as it turns out, not strong enough, and now paying the price
Syd - enough said, we all know the story. Roos and their board have been brilliant.
Bris - strong board and chairman
Ess - at that time were rock solid at board level
etc

Even St K now has a strong and stable board, and that has changed the entire culture of the club.

Of course, it doesn't happen overnight. It took Geelong 7 or 8 years, it's taken Collingwood longer. But you MUST have a strong and effective president and board if you are to be a successful club.

I have very deep concerns about this still at Carlton.
Author:  SurreyBlue [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
Lesson = High draft picks don't win you premierships, playing as a team DOES!!!
I think people in favour of "tanking" would be sitting with egg on their face. :thumbsup:
Author:  club29 [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Player development - lessons from the (gulp) Pies
SurreyBlue wrote:
Lesson = High draft picks don't win you premierships, playing as a team DOES!!!
I think people in favour of "tanking" would be sitting with egg on their face. :thumbsup:


Didak, ,Thomas, Pendelbury, Brown, Reid, Ball are all top ten picks.

I agree with what you are saying though. Their team play and system is top notch and has caught the league by suprise.
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