Someone at another forum said he went to a function ?? recently and lots of recruiters were there and they said we had few tough nuts and a young fwdline and opp coaches had figured out our fwd game plan/structure

I place a lot of stock on this guys comments though I am taking a leap of faith in so far as believing his story is true

We got brock to be the tough nut and we have young hendo, yazz, garlett up fwd so I don't dispute this guys comments

But this doesn't excuse Ratten for being so far behind the ladder leaders given the diff in youth is not that extreme and Grigg is a tough goer onball who has been on the outter too long, and doesn't excuse us for having no fwd structure right now - if anything if opp coaches have figured us out then it is up to Ratts to react with a new structure and it is also up to Ratts to motivate the players --- cause he is the coach, right?

I would love to get Pav and there are rumours but geez we'd have to trade 2 yrs worth of picks and I am loath to trade away too many early picks given the next few drafts are buggered

I would start by trading Walks and Hammer and go to draft with 3 picks in top 35 if we can

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Sorry that doesnt cut the mustard

Ratten himself spoke of how every Collingwood player goes in hard, and they had a lot of kids in their team

Sidebottom, Toovey etc these are slight players but they go in hard

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

VB...you are spot on !! I hear you loud & clear !!!!

And I have been saying these things for over 18 months now !!!

Some advice....don't beat yourself up banging your head against the brick wall that constitute a percentage of delusional TC posters....they will all be forced to see the light...some just see it sooner than others !!!!!

I feel your pain.

Using Ratten can't coach is just your excuse to counter the youth excuse used to counter the Ratts excuse used to counter the youth excuse.....

Simple really.

I think Ratts can't coach is overrated.

Personally I'd rather see the whole board shift - new president etc...

then get tough with the co called assistant coaches


not excuses though

just as youth is not an excuse

nor is ratten can't coach

they are just opinions

but the Ratts can't coach brigade are just plain rude when it comes to trying to discuss other features of our troubles.

Ratts is not coaching well
His assistants are not helping
The president should never have extended his contract
and we are a young side!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

No doubt we're soft but I think what's underestimated is the breakdown in the fabric of the club's playing list over the last 15 years. I long for the days of Ken Hunter, Wayne Johnston and Jim Buckley throwing their bodies off cliffs for the club. I haven't seen much from any Carlton player over the last 10+ years that remotely resembles the way those guys played - Adrian Hickmott's one of the few honourable exceptions since our last flag.

Sadly there was a moment in the history of the club where we not only melted down financially but also with list management and what we have now is a direct consequence of that. In the normal course of list building there's a hierachy within clubs. There are the guys who throw themselves in front of fast moving vehicles week after week (think Glenn Archer) whose actions if not very presence embarasses the new recruits into taking similar self sacrificing risks.

Around the turn of the century we lost that transition. At a time when we should have been passing on the hardness of the old timers to the newbies we had a bunch of self-interested, overpaid primadonnas like Allan, Beaumont and Camporeale looking out for themselves. From that point on it was all downhill and by the time we managed to get our hands on super talent like Murphy and Gibbs we didn't have anyone above them able to command their respect and show them what was necessary if they were ever going to make it to greatness.

So we tried to import it.

But Judd alone is not enough. As our lone hardnut he's easily seen by the other players as a freak. In the Carlton teams of the early 80s he would have been a very good player but probably not exceptional.

I've heard the phrase "When it's your time to go, you go!" mentioned a few times over the last couple of days. Sadly we have an entire generation who missed that class. Ryan Houlihan would have been a very different (and possibly great) player had he been recruited by Carlton in 1981.

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"Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen."

Mort Sahl

Experience Comparison

Judd - Swan
Carrazzo - Johnson
Simpson - Ball
Betts - Davis
Scotland - Didak
Fisher - L.Brown
Waite - Maxwell
Warnock - Jolly (Jolly much older but 206 was good yesterday in ruck)
Cloke

Bower, Jamison - Toovey, N.Brown

Russell, Walker - O'Brien, Goldsack

Gibbs, Murphy - Thomas, Pendles

Hendo - Dawes
Yazz - Beams
Garlett - Macaffer
Hammer - Ried
Grigg - Sidebottom
Johnson -Wellingham
AJ - Blair
Ellard


Not much difference when you look at it

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

SEN are fools: Waite was played back because we played something more akin to 1-on-1 football, and thus needed a legitimate chop out. Having said that, he performed poorly in this role.

I'd say Ratten was well aware of their contested ability, and told the players as much. Certainly seemed like they felt they had no chance of winning in close. I'd say that's poor communication on the part of both parties.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

If it was 1 on 1 foot then why did we kick to 2 on 1s all day?

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

So are you going to tell me what we have running around is much better

We are soft as butter these blokes dont have the football skills but they were hard at it

No one wants to see the player that lays 10 tackles a game or provides a block or a sheppard
They want to see Hoops hitting someone lace out they want to see bullet passes from Yarren they want to see Garlett tearing away from his opponent - Or Gibbs geeting 40 odd cheapies off half back

Give me a Kirk a Ling a Bolton a Selwood a Carr a Sewell a Bentick a Hadley a Swan a Hayes a Gram a Corey these are the blokes that win you games not the soft cocks we have running around each week

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I'm looking at it, and I'm seeing quite the difference.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

this "blame the assistants" myth is absolute bial !

when the Aust government was imploding....W Swann wasn't the one who took the rap for the mining tax....the buck stopped with the boss, KRudd !

In business, when Telstra's share price and profits were dwindling, it was the CEO, big Sol Trujillo who took the rap.

And in a football club, where there is no semblance of game plan, kick out strategy, or forward structure....it has always been the head coach who gets the chop !!!

I loved Rats as a player....but why are people feeling the need to defend him at all costs.....the facts are there....He is in charge of a match committee and football list that is underperforming, listless and playing without any purpose or direction !

HE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY !!!!! HE MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE !

When his replacement is appointed, he can then decide which of the other "assistants" should be retained ! That's how things work in the real world !!!!!

When we were defending, we played something close to 1-on-1 footy. When we have the ball, we're not looking to defend, are we.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Fair call GWS

So, did we mistake hardness for toughness in Hads and Brock?

We have an issue here fellas

Tick tock tick tock Judd's not getting any younger

Nor is Waite

So, do we trade again for proven hardness but prob lacking pace?

Or do we bite the bullet and trade Walks, Hammer, TBird, Setanta for picks and just load up on some hard youth?

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Interesting observation VB. Not something I'd thought of, but it stands out now that you mention it.

Look at their list as a whole and the players that come before them. Go back as far as Betheras. Then look at ours and the players that have gone though our club. GWS has it right. We are virtually missing a generation.

No, it has nothing to do with attacking

Pies had loose man down back all game bec they know that is how to stop our fwd plan

Extra man down back does not equate with 1 on 1 footy mate

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Bradley was mentioned for the port job. Riley got some sort of best assistant award last year. I get your point though Virg.
Id like to see some new assistants and ideas brought in for 2011.

Yeah look I am not disputing the hardness thing at all

It is not all about Ratten - I agree there no doubt

I do think though it if hardness is an issue it makes no sense leaving Grigg out for so long and playing Robbo some weeks and not others

Those 2 show promise and are Mids and are tough, so should be in every week

You cant have your cake and eat it

You talk about lack of hardness but then you excuse not playing Robbo and Grigg

Swallow wasn't a gun 2 yrs ago, but Roos persisted with him and got games into him

I have been wondering for some time why we don't stick young hard nuts like Grigg and Robbo on ball tpo the skip

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

We had a loose man, they had a loose man, everyone else had a man. They rolled down a little bit more early on, we rolled down in the most useless fashion later on.

If you can't discern these aspects of a game, I'm not entirely sure what you're doing on a football forum. That's a genuine statement, not a pot shot.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.