Hi there, I have been a long time BigFooty poster and I have done a write up there as to what I think is wrong at the moment. Any way this is it...

Our forward structure and our forwards are at many times doing the wrong things as ar our midfielders and it hurts us all over the ground in all areas. There appear to be no rules or structures regarding our forward line. We have no idea how to open it up, where to lead, where to position, how to draw opponents, how to create space, how to kick to tall stationary players, dealing with lose or zoned players and functioning as a team to help other players get the ball etc. We also only know how to play one type of football. There are different ways to play when the forward line is crowded and we don't know how to recognise this and adjust to the situation and play the type of foot that combats this.

1. Midfielders must stay out of the forward 50. Ever wonder why in so many games our opposition look to have loads of space in their forward 50 and why ours appears to be flooded at the same time? It's because our Midfielders float forward instead of hanging back and trying to be an option to go sideways to between 50 and center. This is why when we lose we lose big. The opposition break from our forward line with ease, they have midfield space and forward space and can go forward quickly giving our defence no chance. If our mids hang back when their opponents go forward then we will have options to go sideways and work the ball around to find an opening for a short kick forward. Our mids must not follow their men inside forward 50, it just blocks up more space, that’s it. We also are less vulnerable when the opposition get it in our forward line as we will have numbers behind the ball and the opposition players can be easily picked up when they run forward by Carlton players who are hanging back. If our mids hang back they will be doing less running and not run out of steam as quickly and will be able to make it back into defence. This is perhaps why when we lose we run out of legs in the last quarter because of the unnecessary running when we get sucked in to going too far forward. Holding numbers back also slows the opposition down and we are more likely to turn it over at half forward. The benefit of going forward against a flooding opposition and turning it over when we have numbers behind the ball is that the loose opposition players clear out and run forward when they get it. A quick turn over at half forward means an open forward line to kick into. If we don't have plenty of numbers hanging back outside the forward line we have no hope of turning it over, no hope of slowing the midfield down and no hope of getting numbers back to help the defence.

Good sides will go sideways at half forward when it's flooded to find space, open up the fat side, open up more of the forward 50 and get closer to make it a short kick forward. Collingwood do this well. Because if you move it along the boundary you must be prepared to deal with a zone and that means going short and kicking sideways across half forward and using the short kick forward because the forward 50 will be crowded if you move it along the boundary. You need to use the short kick to find a leading target in a flood. Long kicking into a crowded forward line wont work because too many players can get to a long kick.

Our midfielders need to learn not to go into our forward line when their opponents do, it plays into the opposition's hands too well because it means no sideways options and cuts out the option of holding possession of the ball and bringing it inside and closer to the forward line before delivering it to our forwards. It also means further to run to get back and means an open midfield for the opposition.

It really hurts us defensively. Midfielders like to draw their opponents deep into the forward line so they are out of the way when the ball is turned over. This opens the midfield right up and even half decent teams can break, run off half back into the vacant midfield and get it forward very quickly giving Carlton defenders no chance. It also stops our midfielders from running back into the opposition forward line and blocking the oppositions forwards space. Our midfield/half forwards must be thinking of defending and getting back even when we have the ball.

This is why our midfield and even our forward flankers need to be better at holding back, setting up for a turn over and using short/sideways kicks to get it to our forwards. If our mids do get sucked in to going forward too far then they can't get back to help out the defence and we'll get massive scores kicked against us like we do when teams play this style against us.

2. Positioning and leading is poor. So often I see small forwards standing between 15 and 45 meters from goal in the space in central positions when we are looking to go forward. Are we trying to help the opposition sides zone and clog things up? Our players need a system where they lead to certain areas, learn to be dangerous so they get followed and open the space up for the players to lead into. Our leading is terrible but so is our ability to create space. Barry Hall did it simple, lead hard into the most central space. Sometimes our players don't even lead, led backwards or chose the wrong space (wide when the corridor was open). We were scared of one or two zoning players against the Bulldogs. Our forwards and midfield need to know they can lead at a lose opposition player. Our midfielders need to know how to kick the ball (give it a bit more air) when a forward is leading near a lose man so that they can either run past him or and crash into him.

3. Getting sucked in to close to stoppages. It was happening all over the ground. Our outside players were getting too close to contests at stoppages. When we won the ball outside we were under pressure and had to over use it or kick under pressure. We could not run and carry it forward and when the ball got out of the contest and past our players we were vulnerable as the dogs outside men set up very wide and had loads of space to run with. They used the long handball well and we didn't. At least if we set up wider then we would have been able put pressure on them when they used their outside players. when there were stoppages in our forward 50 we had all our players in close and not many runners set up well outside the congestion, they did and all they had to do was win the ball and go long and sideways to lose men and waltz out of our forward line under minimal pressure. The fact we didn't cover their lose players in this situation was poor. It's not hard for us to have outside men set up forther away so they can run hard and recieve both long and short handballs and put pressure on opposition who are set up long and wide.

4. Kicks to advantage. Forever the way to kick a ball is to a player on their own or out in front of a leading player. I can hardly remember a ball being popped out in front of a leading target up forward all day. Were we not leading hard enough, were we not leading often enough or were the players delivering the ball against the dogs blind? The answer is yes to all of these. Why does a crowded forward line stop us from leading and putting the ball in front of leading forwards? It shouldn't. I recon most of the kicks to Henderson and O'hAilpin today were high kicks over their heads or directly at them or to the goal mouth where no one was set up to attack. It's like our forwards had one game plan and the midfielders had another. We gave our talls no chance to crash a pack and take a mark.

5. Leaving the lose defender lose and kicking it to him continuously. The amount of times we kicked the ball to a lose opposition player or a 2 on one today was shocking. One, it's poor decision making by the kicker and two, it's dumb by the player who lets him lose. Lake or Morris kept getting lose one on two and we let it happen. Surely one of those players belonged to either Henderson or O'hAilpin. Then where were they? When there are two talls on the FF in the goal square drop back and pick them up. If your man is getting lose in space or double teaming a tall then go to the goal square to open up and make it one on one. This is stupid and selfish play. Our forwards just don't always work as a team, they can be selfish. At least if you have the Carlton player being double teamed in the goal square and put an opponant on the lose man then at least it's two on two and it might creat a hole in defence and the two carlton players might be able to put blocks on for each other.

6. Dealing with star attacking defenders. We aren't too bad at dealing with really good medium or small good attacking defenders. Houlihan usually does that job. He does it by putting himself in a really attacking position or sacrificing his game and taking his man to an area where he's not likely to get the ball. Today we came across a tall star attacking defender in Lake who gave our forwards a lesson. Setanta was a liability, he was too weak, unskillful, lacked smarts, awareness and slow to do anything about him. I dunno if it's our coaches or the player having no idea what to do but we needed to run him around and run him into the ground. We needed to push him hard up the ground and force him to run hard, force him to play CHB and make our CHF really cover the ground. We didn't, we let him rest and he always had plenty in the tank to run hard out of defence, and get deep in defence where he is comfortable and able to hurt us. Was his opponent too lazy and selfish or are our coaches clueless when it comes to coaching a forward line? For Ratten to come out in the media and say Lake was a worry and do nothing about him is a real worry.

7. It's not that we don't have the players or the talent up forward, it's that we don't have the smarts, structure or proper game plan to do things right when the opposition have a good defence and get numbers back. Is it time we got a coach for our forwards? I'd love to get Matthew Lloyd as our forward coach. Someone who hasn't played all their football at Carlton and as a small/medium sized player who might have something different to bring to the table. Our forward structure, our forwards ability to work smart and as a team is a joke and is amateurish.

8. Collingwood have mastered how to play teams that get numbers back and flood unlike us who are incredibly weak at this. We must be able to play different styles of footy, we must learn to identify situations of the game better. There is a time to get it in there quick or long and there is a time to hold it up at half forward and chip it around and be patient. It depends what style the opposition are playing and if they are getting loads of numbers back.


Collingwood play their attacking game up to half forward. They will go any way just to get to half forward. Getting the ball to half forward is their goal. They believe opposition midfielders will vacate the midfield when they get to half forward and flood their forward line. They use this flooding to their advantage to move the ball sideways across half forward with ease until a gap opens up and a short pass can be made. If the opposition don't flood Collingwood's forward line they get the ball in there quick and direct like we do all the time. We must be able to adapt and change our game style on match day.

I might also add that to those blaming ratten that he has assistant coaches too. They aren't exempt from all this. Matthew Lappin (Forward Coach), Robert Harvey (Midfield Coach) and Mark Riley (Midfield Coach) must be made accountable for the rot that we are seeing.

I would like to see a turn over of assistant coaches. I would love to get Lloyd as a forward coach. As much as I hate Essendon*, all their explayers are having good results as coaches at the moment with their sides. Lloyd was a genius forward, had a load of tricks and could really play. I think he is rated highly as a coach, I think has an AIS role. Also Lloyd has expierence as playing as a marking tall. IMO he would bring loads to the Carlton team as an ex player from another club, a successful club, as an ex tall and as a great forward. Imagine him educating Henderson, Waite, O'hAilpin, Casboult and Donaldson and teaching our other players how to make space for them. That would be excellent.

Not that I have anything against Montgomery as I think our defence has been ok although our midfield has not been helping them but I would take SOS. He's had a lot of expierence at the Saints and might be able to bring some of the tactics that have brought them success.


We have no assistant coaches with expierence as tall key position players. might explain why our team has no idea how to creat space for talls. How do all our short arse assistant coaches develop our tall KPP's?

our issue comes down to forward structure. Once we get that right, the rest of the game plan will come together

Our forward line relies on movement to create space and opportunities.

Waite provides movement but he has missed a significant chunk of the season due to suspensions. When he gets back we will look a lot better up forward. Henderson has been doing his job as the CHF moving up the ground.

Setanta though is struggling. Earlier in the season setanta was providing a lot of solid/fast paced leads - I dont recall seeing even one such lead from him at the dogs game. The leads he did provide were fairly half paced. In recent times setanta has trying to focus more on the stationary contested mark or the one over the back of the defender. That's fine if it works, but setanta is a poor contested mark. He needs to get back to what he did earlier in the season - if he cant do that (ie perhaps calf still troubling him), then he doesnt deserve a spot in the team.

The creation of movement in the forward line will also impact what is happening further up the field. Too often we are handballing around to each other to free up players/create movement in the midfield because there are no options that are presenting in the forward line. Having movement in the forward line negates the necessity to create movement/space in the midfield at all costs as it allows us to move the ball forward quickly to a presenting target. It means that we dont get pressured into trying to create quick ball movement in tight and frees up the game plan.

Our fowards also need to get a LOT smarter.

Cant recall the player but there was another instance in the game that showed me the lack of smarts of our fowards where we had just won the ball in the midfield - there were 2 players in the forward 50 and the doggies player was camped some 5 or so meters ahead of our forward facing the play and gradually moving towards the upfield action. As our mid went forward with the ball rather than take advantage of the fact the defender was ball watching rather than watching the forward and being drawn into the play, our forward chose to lead towards the ball carrier and INTO defender's proximity (thereby giving away the 5m gap between forward/defender). This resulted in a spillage from the marking contest and the dogs carried the ball away. Meanwhile the rest of the 50m arc was virtually empty (ie plenty of space to lead into) that the forward could have lead into (or he could have lead back towards the goal face to open the 5m gap up past 10m before the defender had cottoned onto what was happening.

We also had numerous instances of ALL our forwards flying for a contested mark only to find that the only crumbers when the ball hit the deck were the doggies players. Betts/garlett/yarran provided virtually no ground level presence following the marking contest against the doggies.

Our forwards also tend to sit too far up the ground on ocassion so that when they DO start moving towards the ball carrier, they are invariably 50+ out when they get the ball and with no option to kick to (thereby allowing time for players to flood back). This could be resolved by having a someone that could play the full forward role effectively - to remain predominantly in the forward 20-25m for the contested mark (something that setanta seems to be trying but isnt good enough in contested marking to do), or to lead out from the goal square (something that isnt being done atm). Having the FF start leading from 30m out does nothing for the forward structure.

Fisher could provide the deep forward option as he is more likely to take a contested mark than setanta, can provide a good solid lead and if played out of the goal square would be less exposed for lack of agility. On ant's form, he also deserves his spot. Other options for the deep forward role would include wiggins (though probably more suited up the ground), hampson (needs to improve his marking), gibbs (smart enough to pose a problem if played FF) and walker/waite (quick/agile/pace coming out of goal square)

First of all - gbatman, you have made a lot of points that are worthy of consideration. I wish Ratts would have a read - it would definitely give him something to think about.

Here's my take on what's wrong, for what it's worth, as of this round.

The strategy:

- Hardness - we have none
- Talking and Communication - we have none
- Awareness - we have none (someone mentioned that all Blues players fly for the same mark, and noones stay down for the crumb- we learnt that in junior footy)
- Team play - we're lazy and selfish, we don't back each other up
- Selection - is uninventive - same old same old. The match committee refuses to try anything new
- Recruitment - I can't even begin to understand how we didn't recruit an experienced key backman (i know there are other complaints, but for mine, that stands out the most (really should have picked up maguire pratcially free from the saints)
-Tactics - no idea what to do with the ball once it's in our hands... although i am not fully on the 'sack the coach' bandwagon (My old guernsey had number '7' on it), the coaches must surely take the blame for this one.

The Team:

Backline-
*Thornton - has been or never-was-been, he's soft and lazy
* Russell - works really hard, doens't know what to do with the ball when he gets it
* Armfield - There are other things to football besides running (which he is bloody good at)
* Jamo - to little and soft - was very scared of Barry Hall, skills and workrate are decent though
* Walks - skills let him down as do decision making
* Bower - hit blokes harder and slow down and think when you get it
*Joseph - I like this bloke, has the odd brainfreeze every now and then which can cost us, but he's fast and could spend some more time in the middle.

Mids -
* Judd - is off his game, needs to have some set-shot practise, his goal kicking is laughable. In general, skills and decision making well below the standard he generally sets
* Simpo - Clearly the standout player for the year - severly lacks support
* murph - gone missing
* Gibbs - hasn't found his niche yet, black mark against his name for clangers on the weekend - needs to be cleverer
* Scotland - has been really good this year, needs to use his hardness more, could really use him in the back half as well
*McKlean - Who...?

Forwards -
Henderson - Worked hard on the weekend, almost could make a good argument for him as a back, will get better if he get some confidence, have seen him take some good contested grabs
Betts - spends too much time on the ball, needs to be locked down forward (for the record, should have been given a free for his amazing chase and tackle this weekend)
Yarran - too much ego this early in his career. Yeh he's quick but is a bit pompous for this stage in his career - needs to do the team thing first
Garlett - Pretty good for mine, runs hard. Bit small to scare the big backs though
Setanta - He's got heart... that's about it - although as a 2nd option, can cause damamge... can't handle pressure of being the goto man
Houlihan - Angers me so much. Has the skill of a champ, the hardness of a swimsuit model, workrate of a dole-bludger sometimes

Rucks - I don't even know what to say. Jacobs has been solid. Where is Warnock? Surely he's worth a run... Hampson is missing bulk

best post I have read for a long time no excuse.


Thornton and Houlihan can piss off and not come back

Its the same old same old

I walked out with the misses in timeon of the third quarter and wont be back until they finally sort this shit out whch means that

1 those players mentioned have to go. I have seen enough of these 2 blokes to know they wont be part of a premiership team. The fact that they have been at the club for so long is laughable


get a new head coach who knows what he is doing
a new President who knows what he is doing

Both are so not good enough to be in these positions
Great players heart in the right place but simply not up to it

If the MC were fair dinkum they should drop 12 players this week
Of course that wont happen but you could drop 6. That wont happen as well.

Play Ellard
He deserves a game tries his arse off. You will get 100% effort from him unlike Houlihan and Thornton who have both been cancers at this club for too long. What is the point of having a rookie on your list for 3 years for one game three years ago.
Got to give him a month at senior level. He could do no worse than the rest of the midfield with the exception of Judd

Promote Tuohy, Casboult,White for next year

Tuohy has learnt quickly.
He is super tough a strong body and is quick. He can slot in somewhere next year.

Casboult should be promoted because he can take a pack mark and is a reasonable kick. The coaches should work really hard on getting him aerobically fit during the summer break. With a proper game plan that isolates Casboult with his direct opponent he could be very handy and we desperately need a strong marking forward. He is worth the risk to be promoted

White is tough and has shown enough to me that he deserves a promotion

Thats for starters

The team is as soft as warm butter
Its been like that for flower years but worse than that its been excepted. In the new facilities there is a walkway with every player that has played 200 or more games for the club. Houlihan is likely to be up there soon. His effort like last Sunday I have seen so many times and he gets a game because he sometimes stops the opposing backman. Not good enough


I think Richmond is a great example of what we should have done 3 years ago.

They had a thorough process to get a senior coach with a few years as an assistant at successful clubs in Hawthorn and Port Adelaide who has installed a sense of toughness in the squad and a game plan that is beginning to pay dividends. Hardwick coaches the way he played and he expects nothing less from his players. Its not just about having a gun forward in Jack Riewoldt its about changing the culture of the place that has been [REDACTED] for 30 years


Of course they will have bad losses because they are a young team learning. But they are on the right path.

Notice Hardwick aint playing the likes of McMahon,Morton, Polo. Players that Teflon Terry played because they had some skill.

Notice how the club acted swiftly to send a message to Daniel Connors that his behaviour in Sydney wouldnt be tolerated and he was give the arse for 8 weeks during the season unlike the wet lettuce the Carlton footy club handed out to Betts, Houlihan and Walker.


You need no further proof that something stinks down at Royal Parade than to watch that game on Sunday.

And there is the Warnock and McLean trades. All clubs have recruiting howlers but these 2 are real bad.


I feel like a trater that I wont be going to any more games until the likes of Kernahan, Ratten, Lappin, Bradley, Wiggins,Fisher, Johnson,Houlihan and Thornton leave but as a little kid said to me as we walked out of the ground with his dad

I HAVE HAD ENOUGH

We're missing Fev!!

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You want the flame? Give us the marbles!!

Well done Batman too
I reckon you summed a complex situation well.

Might I recommend you spend a few hundred dollars and get a Level 2 AFL Coaching qualification. You don't necessarily have to use it (I rarely use mine save for helping out on matchdays with a Melbourne Private School as opposition coach) - but it gives you a great insight into some of the things you've raised and why they work in given situations and why they don't. You raise some valid points just the same.

Of course every coaching manual will tell you that to win matches you need to tackle. If we attempt 'touch footy' again we'll get smashed....regardless of the opponent.

two things for mine

1) Tackle the pricks. I agree with DOC here. It is simple, but where was it on the weekend? We did a lot of watching, a lot of tossing an arm out and too much looking at a teammate to lay the tackle. Sides like the Bullies love to play 'Born Free' football.

2) Backline. Everyone is banging on about the forward line but I think we've [REDACTED] up the structure of the backline - particularly for Elliad. we need direct, fast, and brave run. Hesitate coming out and you are greeted with an ocean of opposition players. Lucas and White both gave us direct hard running and we need the pair of them back in that back line. There is running hard and straight and there is running around like a headless chook. We've adopted the headless chook approach.

At The MCG you have more space to take it slow but at Elliad the back line is the springboard, it must be swift and decisive. I'd even try Yarran there. We need swift ball out of defence.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

We worked all preseason on one particular style of play with a certain set up
Part of it was abandoned before we got to round 1 and the rest was thrown out by the time we got to round 3 when we got beaten by Essendon*


People complain about Ratts not having a plan B - I reckon he is on about Plan Q at the moment
He changes things up if they work he sticks with that until things go pear shape and then he changes them again

The style and type of play we hit the Bulldogs with was miles different to the gameplan we took on the tigers and the lions with .

sometimes you just have to put a plan in place and stick to it

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

On Sunday that was the biggest problem. You can't let the dogs move the ball from end to end without any pressure. OTC raised an interesting stat last night, if you lay a minimum of 71 tackles on the dogs you will win the game, we laid 42 tackles for the game. Now I am not in the inner sanctum at Carlton but the public emphasis for the game this week was to stop Brian Lake, no mention of tackling or defensive pressure.
No wonder Brian Lake started forward and not back.

I whole heartly agree with the Tackle tackle tackle plan but our problem is our best tackles are not in the side - Maclean injured - Hadley sacrificed because he didnt take out Mcphee - Kruezer injured - Grigg cant get a look in and we shipped Bentick off to Port Melbourne


We have felt the need fo speed and forgot all about tackling - Ratts should have watched the Geelong Hawks game and copied them instead he copied Matthew Knights

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Disagree.

Football is continually evolving and coaches have to have the foresight and imagination to move forward.
Denis Pagans stubbornness and refusal to adapt brought him undone.

Ratts' problem is coming up with systems that actually work. It did for a while after the Essendon* game but we've been unravelled for a while now with no sign of successfull system since.

I continually see players who are brought up from our VFL side completely overwhelmed and lost with the tempo of AFL, Hammer and Grigg the latest bunnies in the headlights.

An overhaul of the approach to development in the 2s with an increased emphasis on hustle and intensity is needed IMO.

This is all too in depth for me. I prefer just to blame Thornton.

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"I had to eat"

Good point Rexy, but also a committment to play them for a couple of games in the 1's would be good. Grigg looked terrible early last week again the Brions, but by late in the game - albeit when the intensity had dropped - he looked more comfortable. Why not let him try and carry that form into the next game? At least after a few games you've given him a chance to readjust - he's shown in the past that he can play at this level.

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Congratulations CK95

Tantrum !

great thread and nomination for POW - this is the reason you come onto TC

theage on the w/e did a quick analysis on the hawks before and after their 7 week winning streak. the most noticable stat for me was their tackling count. It soared and as a consequence their defence improved 3+ goals.

the saints have proven that pressuring the ball carrier will yield consistent results

this does not address the tactical issues raised, but is a basic of the game that if we get right will go a long way to building a better defence. I would set a challenge for the team to get PBs on their tackle count next week

I have posted before that the collective coaching panel needs to be updated. I agree Lloyd would be awesome, however he is unlikely to leave the media. Interestingly the saints mastered the ball carrier pressure tactic but still struggled to move the ball forward. They head hunted Leigh Tudor from the Cats and their game improved incredibly. Which means you need to address both areas - ie players still need to know what to do when they win the ball back from tackling

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The glass is neither half full nor half empty. Rather the glass is twice as big than required.

Watching it again the two obvious things to me were:

1. Tackling - or lack thereof - particularly in the last half, and
2. forward 50 entry - phew, could do with a plan there. I'd agree that Lappin doesn't seem to have a Plan A let alone Plan B.

If we'd tackled to 80+ tackles and made clever use of forward 50 entries and actually taken opportunites (missed some easy shots in the first half) we probably wouldve be break even or better at half time, had more pressure on them across the ground and been clearly in the game.

I reckon it was as simple as that.

I'd bring in Grigg to play defensively on Jude Bolton.
Hadley to run with Buddha.
Perhaps Ellard for McGlynn - although I'm not sure of his pace.
Obviously Waite for Carlos.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

I think the low tackle count had a lot to do with a number of things. 1 is that our midfield and half forwards don't get in a position to defend when we get the ball forward, we don't block the space well enough at half forward and midfield etc to slow them up. Also we do a lot of unnecessary running in the midfield. We run too hard forward when the opposition go forward to help their backline. This is when we need to hang back, guard space and pick our men up when they come out. This way we will be getting some rest when we get it forward and will be in a position to be able to get back and help out our defence who has been doing things on their own latly and that is poor AFL footy.

When we get our midfielders running to the right places and our forwardline functioning better our whould team will improve.

Footy is all about opening up space for us and closing things up for them, we do this poorly and we need a couple of game styles up our sleeve to get this going.

All i think we need is to:
1. get the midfield positioned better so they can defend.
2. get the forwardline functioning better. Functioning as a team not just 6 individuals.
3. have a couple of different ways to play when we get the ball to half forward, for example get it in quick or hold it up and move it shortand sideways. That decision will have to be made by the players at the time.