TalkingCarlton :: View topic - The Carlton Myth.

We may as well give up.

verbs wrote:

We may as well give up.

Most of them are playing like they already have !!

My post isnt necessarily about winning premierships as well all know that it is bloody hard to win one, let alone the 8 we have been blessed to see since I have been alive.

My post is about where we have been finishing on the ladder, even prior to the black days of 2002.

Up until 1991, we had never finished lower than 8th. In 90-odd years of footy. Granted there were a lot of 'second lasts' in the early days of the VFL before it expanded but as a club, our relative level of success dropped significantly after the in-house arguments between Walls and his players in 1989.

As I said - the worst period in our entire history started then.. .and we cannot be thought of as being Kings or that we demanded or deserved the ultimate success when recent history showed that we didnt.

And for many of the younger generations who were not blessed to see those halcyon days of premiership after premiership, all they know is that we HAD a good recent history but we no longer do, and no longer deserve a mantle as a successful club.

Geez, even Collingwood, as an embarrassment to the league post 1958 in terms of ultimate success finsihed in the finals a lot more than we did in those dark years. And Essendon* was never far away from Finals until 2002 either. What.. Sheedy missed finals only 4 times in 27 years didnt he? Something like that.

Very simply put, we are not the Kings of the Jungle that many supporters think we are... and I think this belief has permeated its way into the administration halls of Princes Park so that the hard work is forgotten. I just hope the Ghost of Richard Pratt still haunts the place and we start to do things differently with a distinctive Carlton edge that will lead us to a period of long-term success.. both on and off the field.

This is pessimism in the extreme.

The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris

Curtley Ambrose wrote:

This is pessimism in the extreme.

The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris

Yeah, I agree Curtley.

Lighten up Chyna and be thankful that, for whatever reason, you turned out to be Carlton man.

I can't think of a better to team to support or have supported. Can you? Really?
Imagine being a Tiger? Or worse being a Pie? Geez, talk about needing to take a long walk off a short pier.

Maybe all you're saying is that we don't have a divine right to success anymore than anyone else.
Quite true, but we're in the mix now and sooner or later our stars will align.

Curtley Ambrose wrote:

This is pessimism in the extreme.

The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris

Author:	chyna [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:	The Carlton Myth.
For those who listen to the footytalk.com.au podcasts or read some of the articles we have written over the last 6 years, you will know that we have tried to maintain a level of relatively unbiased Carlton view on the show, even though many of us are Blues supporters. You will also know that we try to give a balanced view on all teams and clubs and especially the footy medja but for those who don't, well this little article is very biased from Carlton supporter. I was prompted to write this when I logged in here and saw the topic heading "When we were kings". I was thinking it would be something written about how good we were for so long and I nearly choked. Thankfully it is about a period in our history when we really WERE kings - 1972. (well fom 1968 - 1987) Post 1987 however we have been less than kings. We have been a bunch of court jesters.. harlequins if you will.. who have had the odd moment of triumph and a hell of a lot of pain to deal with. Look simply at our results. Up until 1991, our lowest ever finish on the league ladder had been 8th (from memory and I hope the Blueseum forgives me if this is wrong). We had, to my knowledge at least, never fnished 11th. The dark days of the Robert Walls sacking averted real disaster when Jezza took over and we struggled to 8th. Similarly in 1990 we managed to limp to 8th spot. Still quite a deal lower than we would have hoped or expected. To suggest it is because we didn't embrace the draft or the trade system is over-simplifying the issues and we all know the reasons why that was. Thank you Jumbo! But to get back on track again. Since 1988, we missed the finals 4 yrs in a row. For those of us used to a modicum of success, this was disgraceful. And to think we had a galaxy of stars at this time as well. Bradley, Kernahan, SOS and Madden. The mainstays of our list for a decade, but who alone couldn't lift us into the finals in this period. Then we were lucky to build a side based on mature aged recruits and some interstaters who helped us become an awesome force for three years, which resulted in slim pickings in the Premiership stakes. Only 1. Shameful given our list and our coach. Mentally weak at big moments, and I talk of the 1993 GF and the finals in 1994. Terrible. Again, in 1997 and 1998 we finished 11th in both years. How does that happen FFS! We all know what happened in 99, 2000 and 2001. So, notwithstanding the issues following Brittain taking us to our first spoon and the disintegration of the list following Black Saturday which don't need to be discussed here, lets look at the reality. Between 1988 and 2008, (20 years), we managed to make finals 7 times. We played in 3 GF's and lost 2. We had chances in the a couple of other years but were mentally weak (losing Kouta to that Essendon* bastard in 2000 didn't help) but my point is this. People want to talk about that natural order of things and the expectation of success that Carlton has and demands. In my opinion we have been a second rate mob of old world geezers who do not deserve nor demand success. WE have struggled to embrace the modern world and until we do, we will contimue to remain a bunch of second-rate no-hopers that have dreams of success rather than demanding and expecting it. The WORST PERIOD IN OUR ENTIRE HISTORY... at least in the VFL/AFL didn't start in 2002. It began halfway through 1988 and the 1995 premiership deluded all Carlton supporters into thinking we are a lot better than we actually are or have been. I'm The Explosion and Thats My Rant.

Author:	25 was always special [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
As Borat would say "Wow Wah Wee Wah !" High five, yes.

Author:	verbs [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
We may as well give up.

Author:	chyna [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
Either give up or realise we are a ramshackle bunch of second rate no-hopers and change our flower methods.

Author:	25 was always special [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
verbs wrote: We may as well give up. Most of them are playing like they already have !!

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

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Author:	verbs [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
25 was always special wrote: verbs wrote: We may as well give up. Most of them are playing like they already have !! Well it's taken a Carlton supporter 23 years to bring this up.

Author:	Captain Dan [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
I like your thinking, chyna, you have a good brain. But I will say this. Throughout the period of 1988-2008, new teams have come into the competition, have made the league a less than even playing field when it comes to the salary cap and whatnot, giving them an unfair advantage in my eyes. It is an interesting question really. Is it a coincidence that since 1988 (and a little before) that the league has expanded from its humble beginnings of local Victorian competition to nation-wide mega business and teams find it harder to win flags? More teams, more diversity, more competition, tied in with the benefits that new teams gain make it increasingly hard to win a flag in the game in the last 20 odd years. It is something most of the Victorian clubs have had to suffer from. As is the case right at the minute, the Gold Coast will end up spoilt rotten with flush players and picks, as will GWS. Just throwing it in there that while Carlton had the flags rolling in regularly prior to 1988, the league has changed dramatically, making it more competitive than ever before. Great post though, chyna

Author:	Captain Dan [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
The numbers speak for themselves really. It isn't just Carlton who have found it hard to win premierships since the late 1980s. The "big four" Victorian clubs in particular are interesting to look at. Carlton- had won 14 premierships prior, but only been premiers twice since the late 80s (1987, 1995) Collingwood- had won 13 premierships prior, made many Grand Finals but have only held one premiership cup aloft in the said period (1990) Essendon- much like Carlton, they'd won 14 premierships prior, and have only done it twice since (1993, 2000) Richmond- Had been successful throughout the decades prior to the 1980s when they began to fall. Claimed their 10th flag in 1980, but have no premierships since, and only played finals twice since 1982; 1995 and 2001. ____________________________________________________________ Hawthorn- Had a super-team in the 1980s so the story for them will be much different. Seven Grand Finals in a row from 1983-89, and won four premierships since the late 1980s (1988-89, 1991, 2008). As we've seen in the aftermath of their 08 triumph, it is increasingly hard to back up the next year. Geelong- Should note a couple of eras of Geelong since 1988. We had the era of the late 80s to mid 90s team where they made the Grand Final in 1989, 1992, 1994, and 1995, but fell at the last hurdle. Interesting to note that two of those Grand Finals have been lost to an interstate team (WCE). Much like the Hawks of the 1980s, Geelong currently have a 'super-team' in place and are in the middle of their premiership run. Took them a long time to get to where they are, but are now enjoying the rewards. Made three Grand Finals in a row, winning two of those, and this year look poised to contest their fourth straight Grand Final. I can't help but wonder that in the current AFL landscape of competition, that a club needs a power-team to reach these heights; to win one premiership is hard enough, but to win two is incredibly difficult. Being at the top simply does not cut it anymore to win multiple flags. After their run of premierships and Grand Finals is over, it would not surprise me one bit if it took them a fair while to get there again. I feel it's the nature of the league. North Melbourne- Solid team throughout the 1990s, winning two flags (1996, 1999). Had the chance to win a few more, particularly in 1994 and 1998. One could argue that they're one of the few Victorian clubs to have done alright since 1988. Were hopeless throughout the 80s and had only won two premierships before the 90s. Melbourne- Have been in the wilderness since their last flag in 1964, but the expansion of competition has not helped them one bit... Western Bulldogs- Have had very few chances to win a flag since their one and only in 1954. Much like Melbourne, the expansion of teams hasn't helped their cause to win another one. St.Kilda- Same deal as Melbourne and the Bulldogs. Have not won a flag since 1966, and have looked lost a fair bit since then. Interesting to note though, on a couple of occasions they have been in a position to take the cup, they've been beaten by interstate clubs- Adelaide in 1997, Port Adelaide in the PF 2004, Sydney in the PF 2005. The reality is the league has never been as competitive as it is now. And with the Gold Coast team and Greater Western Sydney coming into the competition, it isn't going to change. To win one premiership is a big effort in today's AFL climate, but to win multiples require powerhouse teams. Many people are of the belief that we will return to the top and win flag after flag solely because we are Carlton, a club used to success. Need to move with the times and accept that without the utmost best team in the league, you will struggle to win a flag, let alone two or three.

Author:	mikkey [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
Where is my rope?

Author:	chyna [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
My post isnt necessarily about winning premierships as well all know that it is bloody hard to win one, let alone the 8 we have been blessed to see since I have been alive. My post is about where we have been finishing on the ladder, even prior to the black days of 2002. Up until 1991, we had never finished lower than 8th. In 90-odd years of footy. Granted there were a lot of 'second lasts' in the early days of the VFL before it expanded but as a club, our relative level of success dropped significantly after the in-house arguments between Walls and his players in 1989. As I said - the worst period in our entire history started then.. .and we cannot be thought of as being Kings or that we demanded or deserved the ultimate success when recent history showed that we didnt. And for many of the younger generations who were not blessed to see those halcyon days of premiership after premiership, all they know is that we HAD a good recent history but we no longer do, and no longer deserve a mantle as a successful club. Geez, even Collingwood, as an embarrassment to the league post 1958 in terms of ultimate success finsihed in the finals a lot more than we did in those dark years. And Essendon* was never far away from Finals until 2002 either. What.. Sheedy missed finals only 4 times in 27 years didnt he? Something like that. Very simply put, we are not the Kings of the Jungle that many supporters think we are... and I think this belief has permeated its way into the administration halls of Princes Park so that the hard work is forgotten. I just hope the Ghost of Richard Pratt still haunts the place and we start to do things differently with a distinctive Carlton edge that will lead us to a period of long-term success.. both on and off the field.

Author:	Juddy&theKruezers [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
chyna wrote: My post isnt necessarily about winning premierships as well all know that it is bloody hard to win one, let alone the 8 we have been blessed to see since I have been alive. My post is about where we have been finishing on the ladder, even prior to the black days of 2002. Up until 1991, we had never finished lower than 8th. In 90-odd years of footy. Granted there were a lot of 'second lasts' in the early days of the VFL before it expanded but as a club, our relative level of success dropped significantly after the in-house arguments between Walls and his players in 1989. As I said - the worst period in our entire history started then.. .and we cannot be thought of as being Kings or that we demanded or deserved the ultimate success when recent history showed that we didnt. And for many of the younger generations who were not blessed to see those halcyon days of premiership after premiership, all they know is that we HAD a good recent history but we no longer do, and no longer deserve a mantle as a successful club. Geez, even Collingwood, as an embarrassment to the league post 1958 in terms of ultimate success finsihed in the finals a lot more than we did in those dark years. And Essendon* was never far away from Finals until 2002 either. What.. Sheedy missed finals only 4 times in 27 years didnt he? Something like that. Very simply put, we are not the Kings of the Jungle that many supporters think we are... and I think this belief has permeated its way into the administration halls of Princes Park so that the hard work is forgotten. I just hope the Ghost of Richard Pratt still haunts the place and we start to do things differently with a distinctive Carlton edge that will lead us to a period of long-term success.. both on and off the field. What Chyna may be alluding to is our lack of competitiveness and consistency in this period...you can still compete and be consistent of performance without necessarily winning flags....and the reason we are where we are is because we are not a professional AFL football club as yet..our processes have not evolved into the current century...we are old school when we should be new school innovators in an ever quickly evolving AFL competition.

Author:	Curtley Ambrose [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
This is pessimism in the extreme. The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris

Author:	BigKev [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
Curtley Ambrose wrote: This is pessimism in the extreme. The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris Yeah, I agree Curtley. Lighten up Chyna and be thankful that, for whatever reason, you turned out to be Carlton man. I can't think of a better to team to support or have supported. Can you? Really? Imagine being a Tiger? Or worse being a Pie? Geez, talk about needing to take a long walk off a short pier. Maybe all you're saying is that we don't have a divine right to success anymore than anyone else. Quite true, but we're in the mix now and sooner or later our stars will align.

Author:	Teddy Hopkins [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
BigKev wrote: Curtley Ambrose wrote: This is pessimism in the extreme. The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris Yeah, I agree Curtley. Lighten up Chyna and be thankful that, for whatever reason, you turned out to be Carlton man. I can't think of a better to team to support or have supported. Can you? Really? Imagine being a Tiger? Or worse being a Pie? Geez, talk about needing to take a long walk off a short pier. Maybe all you're saying is that we don't have a divine right to success anymore than anyone else. Quite true, but we're in the mix now and sooner or later our stars will align. No wuckin furries !!

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Author:	chyna [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
BigKev wrote: Curtley Ambrose wrote: This is pessimism in the extreme. The glass is not just half empty, it's been smashed and we've been glassed with the debris Yeah, I agree Curtley. Lighten up Chyna and be thankful that, for whatever reason, you turned out to be Carlton man. I can't think of a better to team to support or have supported. Can you? Really? Imagine being a Tiger? Or worse being a Pie? Geez, talk about needing to take a long walk off a short pier. Maybe all you're saying is that we don't have a divine right to success anymore than anyone else. Quite true, but we're in the mix now and sooner or later our stars will align. I'm not at all pessimistic. Simply pointing out that the old thoughts of Carlton 'always being strong' are NOT true and that supporters and the club in general need to get over this mentality or we will struggle in the new world order for a long time to come. If we stick with Kernahan's mentality of 'We are Carlton and @#$%&! the rest' then we are screwed. We haven't been THAT Carlton for a very very long time. I am sure the supporters who were born in the generation before me can recall the fact that we didn't win a GF between 1947 and 1968. In another age, we went 23 years without ultimate success. However during these two barren periods, we were still competitive and still made finals consistently (rarely missing). Our problems began because the club as a whole refused to embrace the new world order and many supporters are still deluding themselves that we have always been a strong Carlton except for this decade. That belief is not necessarily true. As a supporter, I am happy to see us back being competitive on the field. There are some concerns, yes, but overall, we are tracking on right path. Should we sack the coach? No. Are our finances strong? Yes, thanks largely to one very rich benefactor. Have the problems that invaded the club through osmosis around the time of Robert Walls been completely eradicated? The answer is no. And the answer is no simply because the club does not appear to have looked at what the underlying problems are and done something to repair them. I am very glad I am a Calton man. They have given me more joy and happiness in my life than anything else including family, friends, work etc. I am thankful for that and cannot imagine every barracking for anyone else. But to bring those sorts of comments into an argument are indicative of what modern day Carlton supporters are like. Many Carlton supporters are delusional about our place in footballing history and folklore. I am not hanging it on the club with my comments. Not at all. Simply pointing out to all and sundry that the road back will take a lot of hard work and simply glossing over it is not a way to fix it. Maybe that mentality of us always being a stong champion team exists in the annals of Princes Park and the admin and board still believe it, so much so that they refuse to recognise that we have not been 'that Carlton' for a very long time.

Author:	Adam Chatfield [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
I think Chyna is either Synbad or channeling Synbad. What's more he is totally right. You can take the simplistic view (as Verbs tends to) that anyone criticizing the club wants the place torn down. That is clearly not being said. I begun following the Blues in 1987, as a 6 year old and thought premierships and success were a birth right of the club. As a young impressionable kid who took everything in the 1989-92 period I remember very clearly and was the real start of the decline of Carlton. This period is written out of history due to us winning in 1995. We still got 1995 addicted to 1970s/1980s methods and were able to prop things up 1999-2001 using similar methods and the whole recycled player thing. Simply we didn't and still haven't adapted to be a super professional AFL clubs which is why we are where we are today

Author:	verbs [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
My view is significantly more complex than that, and never once have I said anybody, and that includes you, wants the place torn down. That's a rather simple thought process you've outlined there.

Author:	TheBluesMuse [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Carlton Myth.
I enjoyed this read.... I feel refreshed . I was 15 in 95....i was on top of the world...nothing could stop me that september.. ....but a certain brother of mine knew it was the beginning of the downfall...