TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Our Biggest Problem

1. Geelong
2. Collingwood
3. St Kilda
4. Fremantle
5. Carlton
6. Bulldogs
7. Sydney
8. Hawthorn
9. North
10. Essendon*
11. Brisbane
12. Port
13. Melbourne
14. West Coast
15. Adelaide
16. Richmond

Against the top 3 our record is 2-1

Against the bottom 5 our record is 5-0

Here's the alarming one:
Against the sides just below us:
0-4

I'm no psychologist, but assuming our issues are purely in the head I think this sums it up. When we play the top teams, I think we have a fear of failure. We take things super seriously, train harder, focus, tackle harder, run harder, everything. When we play the bottom teams our natural talent (or top games from 2-3 guns) is enough to get us over the line. When we play the teams similarly placed to us, we neither feel the need to try as hard as we do against the top but we again expect natural talent or Judd/Murph/GIBBS alone to do it for us.

The answer is that half the team go to sleep every few weeks, these are the players that just aren't 'stars' but rather 'quite good players' but are still important parts of our 22.

These are:
Walker (who you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball)

Scotland (see Walker)

Duds:

Warnock

Juzzy wrote:

Absolute Rubbish - do you watch our games??

Juzzy wrote:

Dud - Warnock

How can you realistically call Warnock a dud? Based on what? A handful of games following missing a complete season and after gaining him as a project ruckman to begin with?

It will take at least into the 2011 season before you can fairly label Warnock a dud. Sure, you can say that we gave up far too much to acquire him but that's about it.

In reality, even that may be a hard one to justify. Yes, Freo drafted well (Suban for one) with what we sent their way but look at other project ruckmen who have been traded over the past few seasons and you'll find that what we paid was market value for a gamble on a potential stud ruckman. In fact, Fremantle could fairly point out that other teams have paid slightly more than what we did for Warnock.

behindblueeyes wrote:

Juzzy wrote:

Absolute Rubbish - do you watch our games??

I know Dud is very harsh, but at the moment he is still on the 'may not make it' side of things. This is obviously compounded by the fact he will get limited game time with Jacobs and Hampson ahead of him. I think if given the chance he could make it, but he also may never get the chance.

And do YOU watch the games? because they are both great players for our club but they turn the ball over very, very much. Scotland must have turned it over 5+ times last night and that is too much and he would do that often. Do you consider him a star? Because I certainly don't. And Walks.. usually his run is fantastic, and he gets a good amount of possessions but you would have to be blind to not see how often he turns it over off his foot. Thank you for breathing negativity into my very positive post.

If that was a positive post - Id hate to see a negative one. Warnock was always gained as a long term project and has shown some signs of his talent. Hampson is to be traded at the end of the year, leaving us 3. Warnock will become our #1 ruck with Kreuzer #2 (if he remains in ruck) and Jacobs providing back up.

Scotland has been one of our most consistent performers this year and has a tremendously penetrating kick. He had a bad night last night - but he was in good company. Yes he is a star of our team and BF votes will support that.

Walker - yes his run is incredible - he is one of the most potent runners off half back in the league. Yes he can put in the odd shocker of a kick, but it is absolute rubbish to suggest that "you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball". Totally melodramatic and blowing things out of proportion. The kid has played what - half a dozen games in 2 years, so I am more than happy to let him find his feet so to speak.

What really disappoints me is after a loss we have "supporters" who just take cheap shots at individual players, coaches, presidents, etc. Most of the time the shots are ill informed and misguided. We can sound like Richmond supporters at times. And if the day comes where we are all as bad as that - it is time to stop going to the game.

Last night we just didnt play with intensity and let an opposition do exactly as they pleased. That was a team thing - it is as simple as that.

behindblueeyes wrote:

Fine ok fair enough, I'll accept that was probably over the top. But I am definitely not one of those supporters you speak of, I support the core group most of the decisions by the club and ratts so I think that is an unfair assessment based on one post. I am only trying to explain why we are not quite premiership material yet, we need more players to perform at a consistent level and yes I think Walker and Scotland are two that could improve in this area if we are to get to the level of, say, Geelong. I do not in any way doubt their contribution to the club however.

I understand Warnock that he was a long term project as players who are 206cm do not become great players overnight, but at the moment he is our 4th string ruckman.

Author:	Virgin Blue [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Our Biggest Problem
We all know it, so figured I'd make it official with a thread devoted to it. CONSISTENCY !!!! Why do we beat good teams, but then drop games we should win? Why can't we win 3+ games on the trot? Is it just bad luck Hawks and Kangas had their best games of the year against us? Is it media driven? (Walls praises Blues and Harvey talks tough, you could almost predict the result) Is it simply bec we are a young side? Most top teams are older and wiser and stronger, but with the same token the Pies have plenty of youth and yet they seem to bring hunger to nearly every game. Is it the coaches fault then? Or a leadership issue? A psychological weakness across the board among this group of players? Do they get ahead of themselves ("Oh we are fifth and almost 4th, how good are we!!"). Jamo says today at club website it's not bec we are a young side. Gut feel is youth is part of the reason but not the entire reason. I see Pies as a team with a fair bit of youth, maybe a touch more experience than us, but they come to play every game and let's face it they have some very ordinary players - Mcaffee?? O'Bree, Ried, Dawes etc. Why are they different to us? Is it a Malthouse thing?? Is Ratts too soft on the players? Is he not clear and ruthless enough in demanding hunger every week, and if u don't bring it you will be dropped? I know he has dropped some players, but not so much midfielders, and we know that is where game is won and lost. Does he need to be tougher on the Mids? It should be deemed unacceptable to not be hungry at the contest every 3rd week. Not good enough that half the midfield (Scotto, Simmo, Walks, Robbo) had such poor games statistically. Why so many players so poor in the one game? AJ, JR so bad down back. What can the club do to fix this worrying trend? Seems we win 2 games, then it's a given we relax and don't come to play in the 3rd game. It's becoming predictable.

Author:	bosman [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Don't worry, we will lose to Freo to break the consistent trend. I also would have said too many topic all about the same thing...

Author:	Donstuie [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
1. Geelong 2. Collingwood 3. St Kilda 4. Fremantle 5. Carlton 6. Bulldogs 7. Sydney 8. Hawthorn 9. North 10. Essendon* 11. Brisbane 12. Port 13. Melbourne 14. West Coast 15. Adelaide 16. Richmond Against the top 3 our record is 2-1 Against the bottom 5 our record is 5-0 Here's the alarming one: Against the sides just below us: 0-4 I'm no psychologist, but assuming our issues are purely in the head I think this sums it up. When we play the top teams, I think we have a fear of failure. We take things super seriously, train harder, focus, tackle harder, run harder, everything. When we play the bottom teams our natural talent (or top games from 2-3 guns) is enough to get us over the line. When we play the teams similarly placed to us, we neither feel the need to try as hard as we do against the top but we again expect natural talent or Judd/Murph/GIBBS alone to do it for us.

Author:	Juddy&theKruezers [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
I reckon its all got to do with the fact we're a developing team, we're young and we need time...which is the usual line that is spun when we get done by a team who beats us in the most precictable way over and over again ala the scum...now we can continue to use this line or acknowledge that we have some deficiences which are NOT just on field and as a club at seasons end have the balls to rectify these deficiencies...oh yeah 'we're mentally weak'...thats another I forgot to add to the above... But seriously I applaud Ratts for boucing back after the scum embarressment to come up with a game plan that got us through a few weeks but we really looked clueless out there last night when faced again with an opponent who could see through our plan for the one dimensional startegy it is... How do you beat Carlton? Just apply a bit of pressure and watch them fall away at the seams....players and non players though are responsible for this and it eventually becomes solely a non player responsibilty if it isnt rectified quickly...by no means do I mean we have to win each week...but the total lack of desire or commitment to at least lose admirably is alarming...I knew we were gone 2 minutes into the game (after predicting we would lose pre game anyway) but I thought we would fight it out at least especially given the average level of the opposition...

Author:	Blues Clues [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Without trying to make too many excuses, in 3 of the 5 losses we've played "similar" teams with plenty at stake and who really rose to the occasion against us, much like we do against the teams above us, consider: Bombers 0-2 going into our game, a season "on the line" game. Hawks 2-6 going into our game, final 8 "shot" if they couldn't win. Roos If they win, they're in the 8. The "making a statement to the footy world about why we deserve more Friday night games" game. It was virtually their GF for 2010! It doesn't take away from the fact that to be a top 4 team we must toughen the flower up and get over these hurdles, but I think it's worth noting.

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Our Biggest Problem http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28175	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Juzzy [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
The answer is that half the team go to sleep every few weeks, these are the players that just aren't 'stars' but rather 'quite good players' but are still important parts of our 22. These are: Walker (who you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball) Simpson Houlihan Scotland (see Walker) Thornton Joseph Betts O'hAilpin Waite Bower McLean Carrazzo Armfield Now these guys are all atm players who in top form go straight into our 22 (maybe not Thornton) and we will never be elite whilst they have all not gotten these inconsistencies out of their game. The positive here is that there are a few young, out-of-form or developing players in there that could become elite ie. Walker Joseph Bower Simpson (older but is still improving) Carrazzo (see simmo) Waite (Again much older but still getting over his knee injury and seems to be toward 'gun' status) Armfield et al. Scotland, Thornton, O'hAilpin, and Houlihan you would imagine would be hard to get these out of their games for various reasons. Now there are the guys of whom a poor game is acceptably rare (our 'Guns'): Judd Murphy Gibbs Kruezer Russell Jamison (Doesn't fit any where else!) more players will be added here, and will need to be. Geelong would have ~12 of these guys. Then of course the fringe players which can be seperated into 'could make it's' and duds who are a liability (note these could change): 'could make it's': Jacobs Grigg Hadley Hampson Henderson Lucas White Robinson Yarran Garlett Austin Duds: Browne Anderson Warnock Johnson Fisher Wiggins and the rest are 'unknowns i guess'. Now what is the solution? Time, Experience and superior depth will help us a lot. There are many players who can work these inconsistencies just about out of their games, and we will be a real flag threat and the ones that may not are not crucial to us right now with the depth we do have. We have a lot to be pleased about, and a lot to look forward to, but be DO need a bit more time. Go Blues!

Author:	Virgin Blue [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Donstuie wrote: 1. Geelong 2. Collingwood 3. St Kilda 4. Fremantle 5. Carlton 6. Bulldogs 7. Sydney 8. Hawthorn 9. North 10. Essendon* 11. Brisbane 12. Port 13. Melbourne 14. West Coast 15. Adelaide 16. Richmond Against the top 3 our record is 2-1 Against the bottom 5 our record is 5-0 Here's the alarming one: Against the sides just below us: 0-4 I'm no psychologist, but assuming our issues are purely in the head I think this sums it up. When we play the top teams, I think we have a fear of failure. We take things super seriously, train harder, focus, tackle harder, run harder, everything. When we play the bottom teams our natural talent (or top games from 2-3 guns) is enough to get us over the line. When we play the teams similarly placed to us, we neither feel the need to try as hard as we do against the top but we again expect natural talent or Judd/Murph/GIBBS alone to do it for us. Very good analysis. Amazing we have beaten bottom 5.

Author:	Virgin Blue [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
I also think we rely too much on Judd. I think 3 of our 5 losses have been in games we either didn't have Judd or he was injured. Ppl say we have one of the best midfields but I think we rely too much on Judd when the going gets tough, and I really think Gibbs should play on-ball full time, because he is a clearance king as was evident last night. When the game is up for grabs in the 1st term, I reckon we could blow away teams if we had Judd AND Gibbs on-ball at the same time.

Author:	club29 [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
With hard work the team and club can overcome this issue and develop a bit more steel. In overcoming this one issue we may learn how to overcome other obstacles that may show up on our road to glory. We as fans need to show the way. Lets get behind the team and those in charge and together we can take the club forward. I know its hard and frustrating. We all want success and we want it yesterday but team building and infact life doesnt work that way unless you are very lucky.

Author:	behindblueeyes [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Juzzy wrote: The answer is that half the team go to sleep every few weeks, these are the players that just aren't 'stars' but rather 'quite good players' but are still important parts of our 22. These are: Walker (who you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball) Scotland (see Walker) Duds: Warnock Absolute Rubbish - do you watch our games??

Author:	Ytoojae [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Juzzy wrote: Dud - Warnock How can you realistically call Warnock a dud? Based on what? A handful of games following missing a complete season and after gaining him as a project ruckman to begin with? It will take at least into the 2011 season before you can fairly label Warnock a dud. Sure, you can say that we gave up far too much to acquire him but that's about it. In reality, even that may be a hard one to justify. Yes, Freo drafted well (Suban for one) with what we sent their way but look at other project ruckmen who have been traded over the past few seasons and you'll find that what we paid was market value for a gamble on a potential stud ruckman. In fact, Fremantle could fairly point out that other teams have paid slightly more than what we did for Warnock.

Author:	dannyboy [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
ahhh yes Ratts no good Tex no good missing Houla and JR no good bits and then all is as it was about seven weeks ago

Author:	Juzzy [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
behindblueeyes wrote: Juzzy wrote: The answer is that half the team go to sleep every few weeks, these are the players that just aren't 'stars' but rather 'quite good players' but are still important parts of our 22. These are: Walker (who you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball) Scotland (see Walker) Duds: Warnock Absolute Rubbish - do you watch our games?? I know Dud is very harsh, but at the moment he is still on the 'may not make it' side of things. This is obviously compounded by the fact he will get limited game time with Jacobs and Hampson ahead of him. I think if given the chance he could make it, but he also may never get the chance. And do YOU watch the games? because they are both great players for our club but they turn the ball over very, very much. Scotland must have turned it over 5+ times last night and that is too much and he would do that often. Do you consider him a star? Because I certainly don't. And Walks.. usually his run is fantastic, and he gets a good amount of possessions but you would have to be blind to not see how often he turns it over off his foot. Thank you for breathing negativity into my very positive post.

Author:	Juzzy [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Ytoojae wrote: Juzzy wrote: Dud - Warnock How can you realistically call Warnock a dud? Based on what? A handful of games following missing a complete season and after gaining him as a project ruckman to begin with? It will take at least into the 2011 season before you can fairly label Warnock a dud. Sure, you can say that we gave up far too much to acquire him but that's about it. In reality, even that may be a hard one to justify. Yes, Freo drafted well (Suban for one) with what we sent their way but look at other project ruckmen who have been traded over the past few seasons and you'll find that what we paid was market value for a gamble on a potential stud ruckman. In fact, Fremantle could fairly point out that other teams have paid slightly more than what we did for Warnock. I'm actually a strong supporter of the Warnock trade. But as i explained above he is in a position where he may not get many more games and clearly wasn't up to it in his first few. In retrospect 'Dud' is an unfair label for any of these players. More of a 'Not up to it' or 'Past it'.

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Author:	behindblueeyes [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
Juzzy wrote: behindblueeyes wrote: Juzzy wrote: The answer is that half the team go to sleep every few weeks, these are the players that just aren't 'stars' but rather 'quite good players' but are still important parts of our 22. These are: Walker (who you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball) Scotland (see Walker) Duds: Warnock Absolute Rubbish - do you watch our games?? I know Dud is very harsh, but at the moment he is still on the 'may not make it' side of things. This is obviously compounded by the fact he will get limited game time with Jacobs and Hampson ahead of him. I think if given the chance he could make it, but he also may never get the chance. And do YOU watch the games? because they are both great players for our club but they turn the ball over very, very much. Scotland must have turned it over 5+ times last night and that is too much and he would do that often. Do you consider him a star? Because I certainly don't. And Walks.. usually his run is fantastic, and he gets a good amount of possessions but you would have to be blind to not see how often he turns it over off his foot. Thank you for breathing negativity into my very positive post. If that was a positive post - Id hate to see a negative one. Warnock was always gained as a long term project and has shown some signs of his talent. Hampson is to be traded at the end of the year, leaving us 3. Warnock will become our #1 ruck with Kreuzer #2 (if he remains in ruck) and Jacobs providing back up. Scotland has been one of our most consistent performers this year and has a tremendously penetrating kick. He had a bad night last night - but he was in good company. Yes he is a star of our team and BF votes will support that. Walker - yes his run is incredible - he is one of the most potent runners off half back in the league. Yes he can put in the odd shocker of a kick, but it is absolute rubbish to suggest that "you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball". Totally melodramatic and blowing things out of proportion. The kid has played what - half a dozen games in 2 years, so I am more than happy to let him find his feet so to speak. What really disappoints me is after a loss we have "supporters" who just take cheap shots at individual players, coaches, presidents, etc. Most of the time the shots are ill informed and misguided. We can sound like Richmond supporters at times. And if the day comes where we are all as bad as that - it is time to stop going to the game. Last night we just didnt play with intensity and let an opposition do exactly as they pleased. That was a team thing - it is as simple as that.

Author:	Juzzy [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
behindblueeyes wrote: If that was a positive post - Id hate to see a negative one. Warnock was always gained as a long term project and has shown some signs of his talent. Hampson is to be traded at the end of the year, leaving us 3. Warnock will become our #1 ruck with Kreuzer #2 (if he remains in ruck) and Jacobs providing back up. Scotland has been one of our most consistent performers this year and has a tremendously penetrating kick. He had a bad night last night - but he was in good company. Yes he is a star of our team and BF votes will support that. Walker - yes his run is incredible - he is one of the most potent runners off half back in the league. Yes he can put in the odd shocker of a kick, but it is absolute rubbish to suggest that "you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball". Totally melodramatic and blowing things out of proportion. The kid has played what - half a dozen games in 2 years, so I am more than happy to let him find his feet so to speak. What really disappoints me is after a loss we have "supporters" who just take cheap shots at individual players, coaches, presidents, etc. Most of the time the shots are ill informed and misguided. We can sound like Richmond supporters at times. And if the day comes where we are all as bad as that - it is time to stop going to the game. Last night we just didnt play with intensity and let an opposition do exactly as they pleased. That was a team thing - it is as simple as that. Fine ok fair enough, I'll accept that was probably over the top. But I am definitely not one of those supporters you speak of, I support the core group most of the decisions by the club and ratts so I think that is an unfair assessment based on one post. I am only trying to explain why we are not quite premiership material yet, we need more players to perform at a consistent level and yes I think Walker and Scotland are two that could improve in this area if we are to get to the level of, say, Geelong. I do not in any way doubt their contribution to the club however. I understand Warnock that he was a long term project as players who are 206cm do not become great players overnight, but at the moment he is our 4th string ruckman.

Author:	TheGame [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
We enjoy being the hunter and not the hunted.

Author:	Wangers [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
In pure and simple terms, WE ARE MENTALLY WEAK- simple as that. Whether that's because the Coach is not a strong motivator or uninspiring, I'm not sure. Football is a simple game - Aim for each player to win each contest (run hard, tackle, kick, handball, mark) aim to win each quarter, and you win the game. Do this for 22 weeks, then repeat the dose for finals. We are kidding ourselves if we think we are genuinely a top 4 side - far far from it.

Author:	blue in the face [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Our Biggest Problem
behindblueeyes wrote: If that was a positive post - Id hate to see a negative one. Warnock was always gained as a long term project and has shown some signs of his talent. Hampson is to be traded at the end of the year, leaving us 3. Warnock will become our #1 ruck with Kreuzer #2 (if he remains in ruck) and Jacobs providing back up. Scotland has been one of our most consistent performers this year and has a tremendously penetrating kick. He had a bad night last night - but he was in good company. Yes he is a star of our team and BF votes will support that. Walker - yes his run is incredible - he is one of the most potent runners off half back in the league. Yes he can put in the odd shocker of a kick, but it is absolute rubbish to suggest that "you can pencil in for a turnover close to everytime he gets the ball". Totally melodramatic and blowing things out of proportion. The kid has played what - half a dozen games in 2 years, so I am more than happy to let him find his feet so to speak. What really disappoints me is after a loss we have "supporters" who just take cheap shots at individual players, coaches, presidents, etc. Most of the time the shots are ill informed and misguided. We can sound like Richmond supporters at times. And if the day comes where we are all as bad as that - it is time to stop going to the game. Last night we just didnt play with intensity and let an opposition do exactly as they pleased. That was a team thing - it is as simple as that. Well said blueeyes. North really came to play. They gave us no time or space and our composure broke down. We need to learn from that as team and be prepared for that intensity each week.