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Putting the record straight.
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Author:  BigBlueWave [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Putting the record straight.
This post is not intended to be in any form an excuse for alcohol abuse or for the misbehavior of Carlton players.

I have heard the Steve Johnson scenario expounded by a myriad of so called journalists and posters on this site and if I hear it again I will spew up.

Firtsly, if you take 1 example in 150 years of football ... any mathematician will tell you that statistically the sample is just not big enough to come to any possible conclusion. There are a variety of reasons why Geelong won the flag that year. Even without the suspension who says Johnson or his teammates would not have played well later in the season. It may have been the case ... who knows??? Geelong had a great side .... if we are talking opinion ... on talent alone Geelong would have won.

I could equally quote the Byron Pickett incident for drink driving where he had his drivers lisence revoked for 10 months in 1999. He was not suspended by the club and North and Pickett went on to win the flag that year.

All the drug and alcohol issues that were West Coast in the 2006 did not stop them from winning a premiership.

I could go back further ... there are plenty of examples.

So please .. give us a break ... no more quoting how Geelong won the flag by suspending Johnson.



OK ... let me have it ... bring on the rednecks.


GO BLUES.
Author:  JohnM [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
Nah, it wasn't about Johnson really. He was just the most visible element of what they did.

Everyone from Frank Costa down knew they'd been radically underachieving with the talent they had. Underachieving because the players weren't taking their careers seriously enough, and weren't doing everything possible to achieve success. As a club, they were acting like it was the old VFL, and living their lives like country footballers.

So they vowed to change things. Got in Leading Teams. Had all the players and coaches confront each other, telling a whole heap of home truths.

Ablett Jnr. got told in front of the whole group he was lazy, and would never reach his potential unless he worked a whole lot harder.

Scarlett was told he acted like an a-hole, and half his teammates (mostly the younger ones) couldn't relate to him, and didn't enjoy playing with him.

Johnson was told, control the booze or rot in the VFL.

Etc, etc. As a result of doing this, they went from middle of the table WITH THE SAME LIST, to dominating the competition.

Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence... that they were merely poised to strike anyhow, is naive. Costa, Thompson, and Harley certainly don't think so.

I don't care so much about a few drinks. I care about it if it demonstrates that we have a broader issue: namely a lack of professionalism.

Brad Scott, noted hard man and new coach of the Roos, said it best:

You don't ever take a break from being an elite athlete.
Author:  dannyboy [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
once again John has beautifully captured what I think.

To me this is not about the booze. I agree players are human and humans fall.

What I worry about is that given all the frenzy over Fev and given the club is trying to attract sponsors I would have thought it a concern to have the whole group go on a boating booze up.

My concern is that Carlton seems to not understand the risks associated with using alcohol to instill some kind of team bond. I want a culture of professionalism at the club. Now I might be wrong, the club might be as professional as any club - fair enough, its just I don't think that happens to be true.
Author:  BigBlueWave [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
JohnM wrote:
Nah, it wasn't about Johnson really. He was just the most visible element of what they did.

Everyone from Frank Costa down knew they'd been radically underachieving with the talent they had. Underachieving because the players weren't taking their careers seriously enough, and weren't doing everything possible to achieve success. As a club, they were acting like it was the old VFL, and living their lives like country footballers.

So they vowed to change things. Got in Leading Teams. Had all the players and coaches confront each other, telling a whole heap of home truths.

Ablett Jnr. got told in front of the whole group he was lazy, and would never reach his potential unless he worked a whole lot harder.

Scarlett was told he acted like an a-hole, and half his teammates (mostly the younger ones) couldn't relate to him, and didn't enjoy playing with him.

Johnson was told, control the booze or rot in the VFL.

Etc, etc. As a result of doing this, they went from middle of the table WITH THE SAME LIST, to dominating the competition.

Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence... that they were merely poised to strike anyhow, is naive. Costa, Thompson, and Harley certainly don't think so.

I don't care so much about a few drinks. I care about it if it demonstrates that we have a broader issue: namely a lack of professionalism.

Brad Scott, noted hard man and new coach of the Roos, said it best:

You don't ever take a break from being an elite athlete.



I think you missed my poimt.
Author:  fmurphy30 [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
I am as filthy as anyone about what happened, but I don't think it is as big a deal as the media made it out to be. Not happy about the lack of professionalism by the players, but I suspect that some of the stories are BS (Robinson? Walker's influence in the first incident, the Casboult thing was crap) and many more were probably never discovered. This is probably true of most teams at this time of year - face it: most players drink. In some respects I'd rather the players got drunk and acted like idiots than if they got high (and plenty still do).

It's off-season, the footy is the H/S's biggest seller, it was a slow news week. and Carlton are unpopular and an easy target for the Fevola/Brownlow incident. All of these things made for a big ongoing story for the rag. Lovett and Hurley havent come close in terms of exposure and I know what crimes I'd rather our players commit.

I hope that the organiser of the event (reportedly Houlihan) gets a holiday from the club next week. Dumb event to have in public. The relevant players who transgressed should get treated appropriately. I am not big on suspensions for one-offs, but repeat offenders (Eddie for one) deserve a severe penalty. Then again, how "pissed" was he to get busted. It doesn't take a lot at the minute in the city.

I am not an apologist for the behaviour of the players, but nor am I alarmist as a result. No one was hurt (depending on the Robbo thing, which was never verified) and no one is going to court. I trust the club to deal with it. I hope that they don't make their findings public. We don't have to know everything. Our club has had a "drinking culture" for a long time and this was particularly prevalent during the losing era. Many of the ringleaders are gone. The changes to the mindset of all players will take time, but I remain confident that we are heading in the right direction. Come March, this will all be history.
Author:  RickJ [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
What a difference a decade makes... or does it. Some selected quotes from Wayne Carey's book "The Truth Hurts" (I never liked the guy but got the book for Xmas and had nothing else to read)

"Denis often used to say "So many people dont get it, but unless you've got that unbreakable bond between players, that sense of unity and cameraderie, you've got no chance of being successful. Every premiership side has it" ... he understood the value of our get togethers, the team spirit they built"

"If the AFL were handing out premierships for the team that partied the hardest in the 1990's the Kangaroos would have been undisputed champions for most of the decade"

"If I'm being brutally honest I'd have to admit to drinking after every game of my career... Even up to and after preliminary finals I'd have a beer"

"As soon as the Friday night or Saturday match was played it was look out. We'd meet at a pub and I made sure I was the first there and the last to leave".

"... we used to play eight or nine Friday night matches each season. We used to circle those games on the fixture list.... because it meant we had most of the weekend to get the drinking boots on and get stuck in"

"Sydney became our home away from home... over the course of some of those weekends when we were at it virtually from the moment we finished playing on Friday night until Sunday afternoon with only a few hours sleep in between, we must have drank 40 or 50 pots each"

And this ... 1995 preliminary final against Carlton. The game was over early in the last quarter and I remember thinking about which pub we were going to meet at... there's only one good thing about losing tonight and that's getting on the turps" (Silvagni absolutely murdered him in that game no wonder he gave it away)
Author:  budzy [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
fmurphy30 wrote:
...
I am not an apologist for the behaviour of the players, but nor am I alarmist as a result. No one was hurt (depending on the Robbo thing, which was never verified) and no one is going to court. I trust the club to deal with it. I hope that they don't make their findings public. We don't have to know everything. Our club has had a "drinking culture" for a long time and this was particularly prevalent during the losing era. Many of the ringleaders are gone. The changes to the mindset of all players will take time, but I remain confident that we are heading in the right direction. Come March, this will all be history.


I have no confidence in the closed shop headed by a hopelessly underqualified President.

I pray Leading Teams are focusing on all levels of management, not just the FD.
Author:  club29 [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
RickJ wrote:
What a difference a decade makes... or does it. Some selected quotes from Wayne Carey's book "The Truth Hurts" (I never liked the guy but got the book for Xmas and had nothing else to read)

"Denis often used to say "So many people dont get it, but unless you've got that unbreakable bond between players, that sense of unity and cameraderie, you've got no chance of being successful. Every premiership side has it" ... he understood the value of our get togethers, the team spirit they built"

"If the AFL were handing out premierships for the team that partied the hardest in the 1990's the Kangaroos would have been undisputed champions for most of the decade"

"If I'm being brutally honest I'd have to admit to drinking after every game of my career... Even up to and after preliminary finals I'd have a beer"

"As soon as the Friday night or Saturday match was played it was look out. We'd meet at a pub and I made sure I was the first there and the last to leave".

"... we used to play eight or nine Friday night matches each season. We used to circle those games on the fixture list.... because it meant we had most of the weekend to get the drinking boots on and get stuck in"

"Sydney became our home away from home... over the course of some of those weekends when we were at it virtually from the moment we finished playing on Friday night until Sunday afternoon with only a few hours sleep in between, we must have drank 40 or 50 pots each"

And this ... 1995 preliminary final against Carlton. The game was over early in the last quarter and I remember thinking about which pub we were going to meet at... there's only one good thing about losing tonight and that's getting on the turps" (Silvagni absolutely murdered him in that game no wonder he gave it away)


After reading those quotes im thinking that perhaps its Pagan encouraged this binge drinking mentality at Carlton.

If it went on way before then Craig Bradley managed to avoid it. SOS didnt come across as being caught up in it. Kouta and Ange didnt seem like big drinkers although they did hit the nightclubs for a stint. Hamill ..i dont think so. Cant imagine Williams putting booze before his footy or Sticks for that matter. So I am thinking this drinking bonding / culture stuff may have come from a bloke who had success with it before. Bloody Pagan !
Author:  BigBlueWave [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
The point is Geelong won the premiership in 2007 after taking measures to stop bad behaviour ... they won a premiership.

BUT

Westcoast did not take action .... they won a premiership.

North did not take action ... they won a premiership.

The year Hawthorn won ... there were a lot of rumours about binge drinking ... Buddy etc. They did not take action.

There are many more examples.

Now I am not saying that Geelong did not do the right thing .... but to quote their actions as the reason for winning the premiership .... its possible ... but not certain by any means. They had a great talented team ... they may have won regardless. From a statistical point of view it is absolute rubbish to quote the S Johnson strategy ...

I am afraid the quotes from the radio and newspaper and some of the posts on here hold absolutely no water.

Note ... I am not advocating bad behaviour ... just annoyed with the press.



GO BLUES.
Author:  RickJ [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
Club29 I think you've stumbled on something. You're absolutely right. It's Pagan's fault. :smile:

Actually I think its JohnM's fault for supporting Pagan
Look at this quote of John's from Sat March 12, 2005, 9.40am

"Denis Pagan exudes strength, but in a quiet, almost frightening way. The moment he walked in the door, the club knew that playtime was over. Many didn't like it, so they're gone. Denis had the strength to believe that his way was the right way. That club stalwarts mustn't be afforded protection just because of their status. He believes so strongly in his brand of football, that we're witnessing it rub off on a group of young men. When Denis speaks, it's clearly not some coach seeing which way the wind is blowing... it's a coach who figured out how to get young men playing Premiership Football years ago. And our boys know it."

Never run for political office John :lol:
Author:  JohnM [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
Sure, I agree with you: anyone who says Steve Johnson cleaning up his act = premiership is thinking too simplistically.

But the entire Geelong hierarchy (including their senior players) is on record as stating that their major attitudinal shift was what turned them into the power team they currently are. Can't deny that.

The bigger issue for me is the continued unprofessionalism of so much of the AFL. Players who can't hit targets by foot. Players who have to run 10-15 hard kilometres a game, yet still choose to smoke. Players who don't have the mental composure to kick straightforward goals from set-shots.

AFL players are brave, skilled and fit. But clearly, a lot of them don't do everything in their power to get fitter, and more skilled. For every Rob Harvey and Craig Bradley, there's a whole bunch of Eddie Betts' - guys who'll only ever be 80% - 90% as good as they could be, because they're not obsessed.

We often say things like "I don't expect the boys to live like monks or anything...", but why the hell not?? A professional triathlete trains 16 times a week, in bed before 10 every night, hardly ever drinks, never lets him/herself go. And they're doing this for a fraction of the money the AFL boys are on.

It's just that footy has a drinking culture, that we excuse unprofessional behaviour. But let's not kid ourselves that the sort of stuff guys like Betts and Houlihan get up to, don't adversly affect their ability to perform as athletes.

A Wayne Carey got away with it (a) because he was amazingly gifted and (b) when he played, the game wasn't nearly as demanding athletically. But in 2010, these guys need to be as much athletes as they are footballers. And I don't think they've fully got their heads around what being an athlete really means. Yet. But they will one day - and we'll look back on things like the booze cruise in much the same way as we look back on Sunday morning drinking sessions during the season: something that players used to do before the sport got serious.
Author:  RickJ [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
So the joke fell flat..

Seriously, I dont think anyone disagrees that what was acceptable or manageable even 10 years ago in the AFL is acceptable in 2010 and beyond. Its just too tough and too competitive, and not just in the playing of football, but in the sponsorship and marketing realm. And yes AFL football still has a way to go to match the professionalism and committment of most of the Olympic sports. Most world class gymnasts wouldnt have had a chocolate to eat since they were 5 years old. Not to mention the distance runners or triathletes as stated.

But there is something about body-contact, violent team sport in men that fosters a sense of going to war, of us against them, of mateship and blood brotherhood, of manliness and blokesmanship (new word). Binge drinking, brinksmanship, and risk taking are often part of the ritual of bonding and team connectedness. It's almost like a primitive tribal ritual. And it almost universal in male team sport that attracts aggressive alpha male types. Being violent and aggressive (at some level) is an advantage in AFL football. Brilliantly skilled but timid individuals never make the grade. This doesn't make incidents like ours at Carlton acceptable in any way, but I think the psychology is interesting

So while Carlton were on the booze cruise on the Yarra, Hawthorn were walking Kokoda, and Collingwood were just back from high altitude training in the mountains of Arizona - all bonding rituals, ours just didnt measure up. That's the challenge, to foster that critical sense of team connectedness in a more appropriate and modern way.
Author:  bluegirl72 [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
That's the challenge, to foster that critical sense of team connectedness in a more appropriate and modern way.
(quote)

I say,a gymkhana with lashings of ginger beer might be the ticket ... :thumbsup:
Author:  kezza [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
I agree with other posters, Geelong would have won the premiership in 2007 whether they suspended Johnson or not. They were the best team by far and probably still are.
If i hear Dwayne Russell say one more time "look at Geelong, they suspended Johnson for 6 weeks and he won the norm smith and they won the GF". Well, Johnson was caught hoon driving in geelong not long after the suspension.
Fev has stuffed up over the past few years, relieving himself on shop windows, getting Irish barmen in headlocks and so on yet he has won 2 Colemen medals in the past 3 years.
Lets just see what rocket Sticks puts up them and see what effect it has.
Author:  latte thanks [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
Reading the Age this morning - about the cricket no less - and it has given me reason to pause on this issue.

Geoff Lawson was interviewed about his time as coach of the Pakis, and the most interesting thing he said about his time there was appreciating that the gun kids being pushed through the ranks love playing cricket for their country, and it is the idea of the game that drives the young kids, whereas the impression with youngsters in other countries like Australia is that it is like a business opportunity - and the spirit of the game is lost.

What does all this mean for footy?

I reckon it means that if you are enjoying the game and remain competitively focussed, and of course you have the skill, then you will go a long way.

Does this mean that you must refuse to have a beer?

In my view, no, but it is a fluid thing. That is, each person is different and will get the best out of each other in different ways. The pack mentality (whether all drinking or all abstaining) won't mean a thing in terms of overall result.

I reckon each player will go through stages where drinking or not drinking will have an impact, but it comes down to luck as much as anything that each player in the playing group gets "in sync" with the others at about the same time. Some will be drinking during this time and some won't be.

The trick is getting all the players in "sync".
Author:  latte thanks [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
PS this probably means that I agree with pagan, in that "bond" between players is critical. But to me the "drinking" aspect is a red herring.
Author:  dane [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
For one I am not sure how you can 'put the record straight'?
Also did that really say anything?
When was all this Geelong (Stevie J) talk?
Who are these rednecks on TalkingCarlton? Albeit kneejerkers of the highest order, but few I would consider rednecks....
Is this just another culture thread?
Can we just make one big thread?
Can we call it.
So our culture is [REDACTED]?! Whose head should roll?! Witch Hunt 2010!
Author:  BigBlueWave [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
BlueRob wrote:
The point is Geelong won the premiership in 2007 after taking measures to stop bad behaviour ... they won a premiership.

BUT

Westcoast did not take action .... they won a premiership.

North did not take action ... they won a premiership.

The year Hawthorn won ... there were a lot of rumours about binge drinking ... Buddy etc. They did not take action.

There are many more examples.

Now I am not saying that Geelong did not do the right thing .... but to quote their actions as the reason for winning the premiership .... its possible ... but not certain by any means. They had a great talented team ... they may have won regardless. From a statistical point of view it is absolute rubbish to quote the S Johnson strategy ...

I am afraid the quotes from the radio and newspaper and some of the posts on here hold absolutely no water.

Note ... I am not advocating bad behaviour ... just annoyed with the press.



GO BLUES.



For Emphasis
Author:  camel [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
BlueRob wrote:
JohnM wrote:
Nah, it wasn't about Johnson really. He was just the most visible element of what they did.

Everyone from Frank Costa down knew they'd been radically underachieving with the talent they had. Underachieving because the players weren't taking their careers seriously enough, and weren't doing everything possible to achieve success. As a club, they were acting like it was the old VFL, and living their lives like country footballers.

So they vowed to change things. Got in Leading Teams. Had all the players and coaches confront each other, telling a whole heap of home truths.

Ablett Jnr. got told in front of the whole group he was lazy, and would never reach his potential unless he worked a whole lot harder.

Scarlett was told he acted like an a-hole, and half his teammates (mostly the younger ones) couldn't relate to him, and didn't enjoy playing with him.

Johnson was told, control the booze or rot in the VFL.

Etc, etc. As a result of doing this, they went from middle of the table WITH THE SAME LIST, to dominating the competition.

Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence... that they were merely poised to strike anyhow, is naive. Costa, Thompson, and Harley certainly don't think so.

I don't care so much about a few drinks. I care about it if it demonstrates that we have a broader issue: namely a lack of professionalism.

Brad Scott, noted hard man and new coach of the Roos, said it best:

You don't ever take a break from being an elite athlete.



I think you missed my poimt.


On the contrary, I think you missed John's point.

For emphasis :wink: forget the drinking culture our club seems to have for the moment, we just need to ask one simple question - are our players, coaches and administrators fair dinkum in chasing a premiership, or are they more concerned about having a good time?

Answer that question first, and, in theory, the rest will look after itself.
Author:  verbs [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting the record straight.
Are you suggesting Ratten is a knock about cad Camel? From what I've seen he's obsessed with the coaching caper and achieving the ultimate result and has been since before he stopped playing.
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