If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"...
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| The Rebuild – 4 years on… http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25855 |
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| Author: | budzy [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
People may differ in opinion but I think the real rebuild started at about this time 4 years ago in late 2005. The reality that the Pagan-lead plan of trying to minimize the damage of the Black Friday penalties by recruiting hard-bodied rejects from other clubs, had been realized as a failure. Finally, all roads led to the modern day realities of rebuilding with quality youth via the draft. And so, in the 2005 draft, enter current young guns Marc Murphy, Josh Kennedy, Paul Bower. As we moved through season 2006, the realities of poor and inadequate leadership from the President right down through to the playing group was exposed for all to see. At the end of 2006, the members had had enough. They knew what they wanted, and that was genuine leadership. One of the most monumental revolutions in the clubs 100+ year existence took place when the MEMBERS showed President Graham Smorgon the door. The message was sent in a powerful way to the clubs powerbrokers that they needed to get ‘fair dinkum’. Meanwhile, quietly in the background recruiter Hughes astutely added Gibbs, Hampson, Grigg Austin and Anderson to the growing list of young talent. In early 2007, enter President Richard Pratt ….enter CEO Greg Swann. The club was now starting to get ‘fair dinkum’. With Pratts financial backing, Swann and new footy manager Icke realized that there were major deficiencies and a lack of genuine leadership within the playing group and set about formulating strategies to address the unprofessional culture that had set in. Captain Lance Whitnall was shown the door …the message was sent to the playing group to shape up. The need for a genuine leader was absolutely necessary for our growing list of young talent and unfortunately had to come at a cost, and the cost was Josh Kennedy and picks 3, 20. It hurt to lose Kennedy as he was seen, along with his 2005 mates Murphy and Bower, as the pioneers of a new age for Carlton. The pain was soothed with the recruitment of Judd …a recruiting coup only matched by the landing of Barrassi in ’64. Also added were young talents Kreuzer and Browne. The majority of the playing list is now made up of young genuine and professional talents. It took longer than it should’ve but the deficiencies in leadership across the board from the dark years has been addressed, IMO. It’s a lesson in life that genuine leadership is required if genuine success is to be achieved and that papering over cracks doesn’t fix things. Yes we can further improve, but the foundations have been set at Carlton. With maturity, genuine success will soon arrive. Go Blues!!! |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
..pago's 5 year plan much better than wallet's.. |
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| Author: | HTP [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Not sure it was Pagan's decision per se to recruit rejects. I believe it was one of two options presented to the board - and the board chose that particular option. |
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| Author: | TruBlueBrad [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
The other decision Swann made was to ensure, through 'list management', we were in a position to have 2 picks in the top 3 so we could in fact off-load one to West Coast, for Judd, and still be able to take the best available talent. |
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| Author: | SparkyBlue [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"...
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| Author: | Kaptain Kouta [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
SparkyBlue wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"... I have said for a few years now that while Pagan was not the coach to take us to a flag (or anywhere near it, really...), he would however, provide the foundations upon which a tilt at the flag could be realistically grounded. Pagan was widely and loudly decried here for his playing of youngsters like Gibbs "out of position", or not playing some young players much at all, while persisting with older, well past it players. I think Pagan's tactics will pay dividends in the long run. Players like Gibbs will be richer in his experience and knowledge for the "out of position" play, and the young guys won't have been burnt by being exposed to bigger more mature bodies sooner than they should be in the quest for cheap wins, like happened at St Kilda. That's my opinion of Denis Pagan's legacy. And it will be a legacy for which we should eventually give thanks, for it will reap great things. |
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| Author: | Rexy [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
I think Pagan was a negative influence. Too many players were restricted in what they were allowed to do. He didn't change with the times. |
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| Author: | General GIBBS [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Kaptain Kouta wrote: SparkyBlue wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"... I have said for a few years now that while Pagan was not the coach to take us to a flag (or anywhere near it, really...), he would however, provide the foundations upon which a tilt at the flag could be realistically grounded. Pagan was widely and loudly decried here for his playing of youngsters like Gibbs "out of position", or not playing some young players much at all, while persisting with older, well past it players. I think Pagan's tactics will pay dividends in the long run. Players like Gibbs will be richer in his experience and knowledge for the "out of position" play, and the young guys won't have been burnt by being exposed to bigger more mature bodies sooner than they should be in the quest for cheap wins, like happened at St Kilda. That's my opinion of Denis Pagan's legacy. And it will be a legacy for which we should eventually give thanks, for it will reap great things.  whats Kruezer's excuse for playing straight away for the seniors and doing a darn good job of it..PAGAN WAS A FOOL!!!pagan wouldn't know what a legacy is..
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| Author: | BlueMark [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
SparkyBlue wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"... Its worked out pretty well one would think. |
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| Author: | Megaman [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Yep, new contract for Pago Pago please |
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| Author: | camel [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
General GIBBS wrote: Kaptain Kouta wrote: SparkyBlue wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"... I have said for a few years now that while Pagan was not the coach to take us to a flag (or anywhere near it, really...), he would however, provide the foundations upon which a tilt at the flag could be realistically grounded. Pagan was widely and loudly decried here for his playing of youngsters like Gibbs "out of position", or not playing some young players much at all, while persisting with older, well past it players. I think Pagan's tactics will pay dividends in the long run. Players like Gibbs will be richer in his experience and knowledge for the "out of position" play, and the young guys won't have been burnt by being exposed to bigger more mature bodies sooner than they should be in the quest for cheap wins, like happened at St Kilda. That's my opinion of Denis Pagan's legacy. And it will be a legacy for which we should eventually give thanks, for it will reap great things. whats Kruezer's excuse for playing straight away for the seniors and doing a darn good job of it..PAGAN WAS A FOOL!!!pagan wouldn't know what a legacy is..Not so. Imagine how much better Kreuzer would be if he had had a season of playing back pocket under his belt. |
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| Author: | Wojee [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Blokes like Simpson and Russell were benched as soon as they made a mistake by Pagan, he was a coach from another era. |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
..Pags said it'd take 5 years, and it has.. ..he got us 3 number ones, and an extra good kid that down the track helped us land Juddles.. ..he got us extra bucks when we were broke and some silverware [goin' cheap] durin' the dark years.. ..with the painful memories already a blur, he "ain't so bad".. ..heh.. |
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| Author: | samblueboy [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Wojee wrote: Blokes like Simpson and Russell were benched as soon as they made a mistake by Pagan, he was a coach from another era. Have to step in here, Simpson played over half his total games under Denis Pagan, developing into a real leader of the club. Credit where credit is due, how many coaches would persist throughout with someone who totaled 2 disposals in his first two games? Collo, Smorgo and an unsettled board and coaching panel, it was amateur hour. There is a bit of symmetry about the way the team and Princes Park have gone about things, left for dead at one stage, both are in line for greener pastures thanks to a bit of professionalism. Next on the agenda is to shore up our Coaching staff by adding some quality intellectual property and getting someone from Adelaide, Collingwood, Geelong and the Saints. |
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| Author: | HELLAS BLUE [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Pagan's coaching method was based on intimidation. If that failed, he had nothing else. Lucky for him North were a talented bunch of hard nuts that thrived on that sort of thing (barring McKernan and Schwass). Players like Sporn, Russell, Davies etc. couldn't respond to his prehistoric methods. |
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| Author: | Chitty's Finger [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
I think the rebuild happened during and late 2006, a year after 2005. For 2006 we still picked up Jason Saddington to shore up the list, and gave valuable games to players who were not going to make it. We took a few young players from picks into the season but by no means did we cut deep into our shocking list to give us more and more picks. |
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| Author: | Wojee [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
samblueboy wrote: Have to step in here, Simpson played over half his total games under Denis Pagan, developing into a real leader of the club. Credit where credit is due, how many coaches would persist throughout with someone who totaled 2 disposals in his first two games? Time on ground for those first two games? IIRC Simpson didn't get much game-time in his first couple. It'd be harsh for a coach not to persist with someone who he had sitting on the bench for most of the match. |
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| Author: | samblueboy [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
Those first two games he was benched heavily, I agree with you there, but it wasn't long after he started playing consistently. You could say those games helped Simpson, who knows? Wasn't everyone like this five years ago? With rotations footy has changed quite a bit in the last 5 years and if you're not ready to play out a game, then you're not ready. Back then you'd have the best players on from start to end almost and players like Callum Chambers chained to the bench. I suppose Pagan never moved on from this, it seems like his methods helped Simpson, however Russell was a player who needed confidence and lots of it. Simpson knew sooner what Pagan wanted out of him and he adapted. |
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| Author: | moshe25 [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
HELLAS BLUE wrote: Pagan's coaching method was based on intimidation. If that failed, he had nothing else. Lucky for him North were a talented bunch of hard nuts that thrived on that sort of thing (barring McKernan and Schwass). Players like Sporn, Russell, Davies etc. couldn't respond to his prehistoric methods. Boy oh boy. Davies. Often drool over what could've been. Our own little Stevie J. He was very similar if you think about it. Unfortunately our culture, development, and coaching at the time didn't allow for people who didn't shine quickly or who didn't fit the mold. Sporn, Davies, Livo, Karl, Beasey - I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten. A lost decade - a little similar to the mid seventies (but with a different source), where we could've won 3 more premierships (1973, 1975, 1976)....... |
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| Author: | Sydney Blue [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Rebuild – 4 years on… |
SparkyBlue wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this year was supposed to be the 5th year of Pagan's grand "5 year plan"... Pagans 1st year was 2003 - 2007 was his final year of his 5 year plan 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 that's 5 |
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