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| Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25580 |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
For some reason, I keep thinking our midfield lacks depth. I think part of the problem rests with Stevens and Scotland having such poor years, by their standards. Most of us probably would have expected those 2 to have another 2 good years. But they have been well down this year, and it has left a hole in the midfield IMO. And I suppose we are waiting for the likes of Grigg, Russell, and Walker to truly take the next step. I think all 3 are on the cusp. Obviously with Walker it's largely about his shoulders - I think he averaged 20 touches a game last year so we know he can find the ball and carry it. But Yarran and Robinson are clearly a while off yet. Do we agree we probably have relied too much this year on Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, and to a slightly lesser extent Simpson? I just think, you look at say a Geelong, and they have about 7 really good midfield types... Ablett Selwood Corey Enright Chapman Ling Bartel + Kelly Mackie Milbrun Wojinski Scarlett The latter 5 generate good carry/run from defence most weeks. I think if the Blues genuinely midfield is King, then they need to view Geelong as a benchmark, and build towards replicating the same level of depth the Cats have. So how are we going in that regard? (Note : I don’t include the small mids like Betts, Varcoe etc as true ball winners/carriers, though I do make an exception for Chapman). Note : don’t place too much emphasis on the match ups below, the point is more to show the comparative depth of the 2 midfields… Ablett (Judd) Selwood (Murphy) Corey (Gibbs) Enright (Walker) Chapman (Carrazzo) Ling (Grigg) Bartel (Stevens) + Kelly (Russell) Mackie (Simpson) Milburn (Bower) Wojinski (Scotland) Scarlett (Waite) What do we think? Clearly we lose out on most fronts. But do we think we have enough depth moving forwards? |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
..firstly, it's more a comparison of mids and half-back ball carrier types right..?.. ..secondly, it's not just about depth, but the variety of midfielders they have, and we don't.. ..without a genuine in and under type, we're using our best line breaker [judd] in that role.. ..which throws everything off balance, and has a ripple effect thru the rest of our midfield types.. ..secondly for me, the cat's mids over the last buncha years have been pretty durable, so they've been able to work consistently together and get stronger as a cohesive unit.. ..we're a bit off the pace yet, but i think we're getting there.. ..just missing a couple more key ingredients to our midfield set-up which we need to be able to really compete regularly in this department.. |
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| Author: | 7dominator [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
VB, perhaps a stat you should look at is age and average games played. The hardness of body and experience is something we are truely lacking.Of the players you mentioned we have only 3 aged 26+ (Stevens, Waite & Scotland). Of those Waite has been injured and the latter 2 dropped recently and couldn't make a starting 22 that was already hit by injuries. Geelong on the other hand have 7 out of the 12 on your list. To further illustrate our shortcomings the average age for Geelong players listed is 26.5 for an average 162.8 games. Carlton on the other hand average 24.1 for age and 102.6 games. Further if yoy take out Scotland and Stevens( bother who as stated were dropped from a weakened 22) you get 22.9 for age and 83.6 games. This is a huge difference and would be reflective of the total playing group. We really need to be patient to get age and games into these kids. We are deficient in players in the crucial 25 to 28 age bracket. To my mind it is not as simple as just culling the young blokes at 20-22 years of age. They need to be persisted with longer than this. We have had blokes like Kouta, Ratten & Doull who would most likely have been cut by armchair experts of today. The Swans and Geelong have been the benchmark in recent years of the importance of harder and experienced bodies. These don,t come overnight. I can recall how the Boltons, O'Keefe, Crouch, Kirk,Corey, Ling, Enright etc looked at 22. We could never have expected them to have become the stars that they are now. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
7Dom you hit it on the head. My query really is do we have enough depth, ie: do we have enough good young mids/fllankers on our list, who will step up in 2-4 years and replace the Stevens and Scotlands and give us the depth we need. I reckon we are borderline and probably need a few more. Yarran and Robbo were added in 2008. Both have talent. Browne and Armfield were added in 2007, but both have limitations and I see both as small defenders rather than quality mids/flankers. Yarran + Robbo is fine, but I reckon we need to grab more mids in this upcoming draft + draft genuine full forwards. I actually reckon the draft penalties can still be felt, because I reckon we are still a bit short on for depth on our list. After having traded away the farm for Judd and Warnock, I would like to think we will keep our picks this year. |
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| Author: | DownUnderChick [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
I'd add Eddie to our midfield group especially when Garlett and Yarran step up. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
I partially agree there DUC, but personally I am not convinced he will ever be more than a bit time player in midfield. But I hope to be proven wrong. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
This is why they went for Johnson, to have a ball carrier off half back with good kicking skills. But I think he has not delivered as much as we hoped. Granted he has had injuries and has another one now. And Stevens and Scotland have been very below par. I think these two have really hurt us. Who'd have thought they'd both have years to forget. I thought Scotto was good for another 3 and Stevo another 2. But on current form both would be lucky to get to 2011. These two really need to turn it around, and in that regard it is good the club have been ultra tough on them. |
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| Author: | Navy Blue Horse [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Virgin Blue wrote: This is why they went for Johnson, to have a ball carrier off half back with good kicking skills. But I think he has not delivered as much as we hoped. Granted he has had injuries and has another one now. And Stevens and Scotland have been very below par. I think these two have really hurt us. Who'd have thought they'd both have years to forget. I thought Scotto was good for another 3 and Stevo another 2. But on current form both would be lucky to get to 2011. These two really need to turn it around, and in that regard it is good the club have been ultra tough on them. It seems that more often than not Johnson gets the ball deep in the back pocket. Not on half back approaching the centre. Not sure if that's his fault, or a structural thing. |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
..lookit, if we're looking at usin' our fwd's as part of our mid group, we're goin' about it backwards.. ..get mids for the middle, and any fwds that can push thru there are a bonus, but fwds shouldn't be counted on.. |
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| Author: | Siegfried [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Interesting. I was discussing this with someone just the other day. The key in terms of quality is to compare Gibbs, Murphy, Grigg, Simpson etc with Ablett, Selwood, Bartell, Corey, Enright etc AT THE SAME AGE. It's difficult to do, because it requires trying to remember what the Geelong guys were like 4-7 years ago. Seems to me that Gibbs and Murphy are better than all of the Geelong midfielders were at the same age (21-22) except for Selwood. Don't forget, it took Ablett about 4 years to hit his straps. As for Grigg, Simpson etc V Corey, Enright, Bartel etc as young 20 somethings, too difficult to remember. It is easy to fall into the trap of comparing our list with that of Geelong's, St Kilda's, Bulldogs' etc. We need to remember that those lists have been 6-8 years in the making. We have time yet for players to develop. The significant question to be asked (and it is being asked) is do we have the right people in place to develop these players, to construct a game plan based on the players we have etc. |
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| Author: | Melvey [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Virgin Blue wrote: For some reason, I keep thinking our midfield lacks depth. I think part of the problem rests with Stevens and Scotland having such poor years, by their standards. Most of us probably would have expected those 2 to have another 2 good years. But they have been well down this year, and it has left a hole in the midfield IMO. And I suppose we are waiting for the likes of Grigg, Russell, and Walker to truly take the next step. I think all 3 are on the cusp. Obviously with Walker it's largely about his shoulders - I think he averaged 20 touches a game last year so we know he can find the ball and carry it. But Yarran and Robinson are clearly a while off yet. Do we agree we probably have relied too much this year on Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, and to a slightly lesser extent Simpson? I just think, you look at say a Geelong, and they have about 7 really good midfield types... Ablett Selwood Corey Enright Chapman Ling Bartel + Kelly Mackie Milbrun Wojinski Scarlett The latter 5 generate good carry/run from defence most weeks. I think if the Blues genuinely midfield is King, then they need to view Geelong as a benchmark, and build towards replicating the same level of depth the Cats have. So how are we going in that regard? (Note : I don’t include the small mids like Betts, Varcoe etc as true ball winners/carriers, though I do make an exception for Chapman). Note : don’t place too much emphasis on the match ups below, the point is more to show the comparative depth of the 2 midfields… Ablett (Judd) Selwood (Murphy) Corey (Gibbs) Enright (Walker) Chapman (Carrazzo) Ling (Grigg) Bartel (Stevens) + Kelly (Russell) Mackie (Simpson) Milburn (Bower) Wojinski (Scotland) Scarlett (Waite) What do we think? Clearly we lose out on most fronts. But do we think we have enough depth moving forwards? i think your wheels have fallen off |
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| Author: | jimmae [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Big Kahuna Boot wrote: ..lookit, if we're looking at usin' our fwd's as part of our mid group, we're goin' about it backwards.. ..get mids for the middle, and any fwds that can push thru there are a bonus, but fwds shouldn't be counted on.. Conversely, I'd like to see more of our mids as part of our forward group. |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
jimmae wrote: Big Kahuna Boot wrote: ..lookit, if we're looking at usin' our fwd's as part of our mid group, we're goin' about it backwards.. ..get mids for the middle, and any fwds that can push thru there are a bonus, but fwds shouldn't be counted on.. Conversely, I'd like to see more of our mids as part of our forward group. ..who'd ya have in mind..?.. ..personally i reckon we should try the Gibblet across half forward 'til the end of the season.. |
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| Author: | jimmae [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Big Kahuna Boot wrote: jimmae wrote: Big Kahuna Boot wrote: ..lookit, if we're looking at usin' our fwd's as part of our mid group, we're goin' about it backwards.. ..get mids for the middle, and any fwds that can push thru there are a bonus, but fwds shouldn't be counted on.. Conversely, I'd like to see more of our mids as part of our forward group. ..who'd ya have in mind..?.. ..personally i reckon we should try the Gibblet across half forward 'til the end of the season.. Just about every single one of them could have a decent crack in the forward line, except Bentley and Joseph. |
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| Author: | true_blue3 [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
all this thread does is highlight even further the differences between our depth and geelong's depth. i know we have deficiencies at the key posts as well, but many of us are of the opinion that we shouldn't draft any more midfielders. on a side note, does anyone else think the cats might just not play players who are not 100% right when we play them in a couple of weeks? surely, they'd rather us make the 8 than hawthorn and they haven't got anything to lose given they are pretty much fixed into 2nd spot (which isn't any different to 1st spot, in fact probably even better), and it would be their gain to give players such as scarlett, taylor, steve johnson, ablett, bartel and anyone else who may be struggling a bit a chance to freshen up. |
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| Author: | Ump [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
I think the main difference between the two midfield is that every Geelong player works when they don't have the ball. You will rarely see them bomb it 60 meters to a contest because their players are always switched on and presenting options. That's why they handball so much. They've always got options. Something we had zero of against the pies on friday night. They have the confidence to take on the opposition and not afraid to draw an opposition player and take the tackle. The confidence they get from their win loss ratio can't be underestimated. It gives them the bring it on, I can take you anyday attitude. Something we lack greatly. They are just miles ahead of us right now. But once we get our running game back I think we can get there. I really thought that earlier in the year. |
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| Author: | Adam Chatfield [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
All this shows how carried away some of us got early in the year. We are simply too young and inexperienced to be a legitimate top 4 side. Its Judd, Fev and the number one picks which lift us above where we were previously, but we dont have enough else to lift us any further until they number one picks develop further, and those around them do as well (the younger ones, obviously not deadwood like Cloke, Bannister, Hartlett, Wiggins etc. |
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| Author: | kkk [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Sorry, there is NO comparison. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
Just re-visiting this thread. Obviously the Cats have more experience. The purpose really was to compare the two lists, and try and imagine in 2-3 years when our players have got 50-150 games under their belts, will they be comparable to the cats now? Do we like what we see on our list? Is there enough mids/flankers of quality? I'd argue we are probably a couple short, given Stevo and Scotto are getting on and have arguably hit the wall early. |
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| Author: | bondiblue [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blues vs Cats Midfield Comparison |
I have a spreadsheet of the midfielders that I refer to every week when looking at our chances against the opposition. To me, the important factors of the midfield group is to: Extract (in and under) Run and Carry (break the opposition lines) Link (to maintain possession and make ground forward) Score (goals) No doubt in my mind we are too young to compare against Geelong circa 2009. I have no doubt that some of our upcoming stars showed more than some of the Cats listed at the same age eg Ablett - Murphy and Bartel - Gibbs (Selwood is the freak). We have a core of midfielders on our list who will stand up to any opposition thrown at them imo: Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson, Carrazzo, Walker. Carrots imo is at the peak of his powers and a very important member of the midfield. Scotland, Stevens and Hadley have to step up to be considered as reliable. Houihan imo is a forward whoi can have a run on the ball, but he's not elite as a midfielder...and may not be good enough in a couple of years. We have our 12-14 players we can throw into the midfield...and Betts is getting there and has what it takes, just needs to develop his engine one more preseason...to be where Murphy is now. But of those 12-14 players most of them are not where we need them to be. But one thing that is glaring at me is the obvious is that whilst our upcoming stars (Gibbs and Murphy) have another couple of years before they start to dominate, some of our midfielders are borderline and need to take a step up whether it be engine, strength or skills, such as Armfield, Brown, Russell, Robinson, Bentley, Joseph, Grigg ... and Yarran is still a baby. We can forget about Bentick, Wiggins, Bannister and Ellard imo. I've got the ruckmen I was keen on, and I believe we have the talls to fill the KP posts both back and forward (especially so when Warnock, Waite and possibly Setanta are in the team and firing). My feeling is that we need to focus on another 4 really good midfielders because some of our borderline players will not improve as much as we would like. That's life. Find me a Selwood, a Rich and a Diesel and I think we have what it takes to take on anyone by 2011. |
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