TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness

Hopefully Setant is gaining the confidence of his team mates. He was rewarded today.

What a dream come true it would be if we had 2 effective tall forward options. :thumbsup:

Absolutely! I love Carlos and he is more effective with his kicking than dumb arse commentators realise, but at the end of the day a Fev-Carlos pairing is not going to be as effective on a consistent basis like the good years Brisbane have received from Brown-Bradshaw, or that St Kilda is getting in 2009 from Riewoldt-Kosi.

Let me start by saying I am rapted that we won ugly against Freo today. Interstate wins have been few and far between in recent years, so congrats to the lads. BUT, that first quarter was inexcusable and so too was our finishing in front of goals (again). So...

I've got three words for you

... too predictable, no structure and poor finishing.

Only one forward option: We still go to Fev too often as if he is the only option up front. We have the odd game here and there where we mix it up and have done it very well, but that doesn't happen often enough. Carlos has been playing up front lately, even when we may have needed him for a defensive option, so I guess the coaching staff are trying something. But they need to keep trying. Remember, noone in the herd controls the herd, so we need to make it unpredictable.

No structure: In a sense this ties in with the previous para, it's all Fev or nothing. And if that means Fev having a shot outside 50 on the boundary line then we'll still take that option. Worse, if Fev takes the mark he rarely, if ever, contemplates looking inside to a teammate in a better position. Of course, this is a flow on effect because noone offers any leads because they know they're unlikely to be honoured.

Further to that, there's the old chestnut of double/triple teaming of Fevola. Where are our free men? What about creating space, decoy leads? All pretty basic stuff.

Frontal pressure: Do we even know what that is? Well, yes, of course we do, at times we apply great pressure inside our F50, but too often teams run it out without a care in the world. I know we can't expect to lock the ball inside our 50 every time our opponents have the ball, but we need to get better at minimising those instances.

Our finishing in front of goals: In 2009 it has been shit. It has cost us games we should have won and very nearly cost us again today. I don't care what the reasons are we just need to !@#$%& fix it! Every week. Not some band-aid one week solution. I'm not sure what plans/practice we have in place for our goal kicking at training, but it's not working. Fev used to convert at comfortably over 60%, now, he's missing more than he gets. This further exacerbates the "Fev is the only option" problem.

If you look at the bigger picture the team is getting better and players are improving in general terms. But, if we are fair dinkum we need to start fine tuning. And quickly!

:yikes:

camelboy wrote:

Have said it previously - setanta's best position is as a forward however his development will be limited whilst we continue to have Fev as the main man/dominant forward. Trade Fev and setanta (and some of our other forwards) will flourish

I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed this season. But we can still get some value out of the next 8 weeks if we're smart about it.

Stage 1 - The MC finish swallowing their pride and leave Setanta forward for the next 8 weeks. He keeps doing what he's doing. The mids will begin to realise someone other than Fev can take a mark and win a contest. Fev realises with a partner up forward, he gets one less opponant, he doesn't need to do i all himself, and he doesn't have to take himself and his man to contests other people are winning. We may need consultants to explain this to Fev using some sort of pictorial representation.

In other words, spend the rest of the season letting everyone develop some confidence in Setanta, and letting Fev and O'Hailpin work out how to play around each other.

Stage 2 - Sit Chris Yarran down after the post season wash-up and tell him we want him to kick 40 goals off the HFF next season (in place of Brad Fisher), have Cordy tatoo a training program on his chest, and make Chris Judd his training partner.

Stage 3 - make Austin and Warnock weights partners and lock them in the gym.

Stage 4 - spend a pre-season working out fwd structures and drilling.

Stage 5 - Austin to CHB, Warnock to the ruck rotaing through FP with Krezuer. Waite to the wing with a licence to roam.

Stage 6 - Think of a more understated membership slogan. Something like "F@$% Essendon*".

Season to taste.

Stage 6 - Think of a more understated membership slogan. Something like "F@$% Essendon*".

Season to taste.

there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock

Not sure you can complain when you 35 shots for goal in the game (sorry don't know the inside 50 stats) which is a lot.... and I thought we created more space today than some other games. Gave Irish plenty of room to work in.

Also thought our ball movement and spread definately assisted this (after 1/4 time).

there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock

Author:	camel [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
Let me start by saying I am rapted that we won ugly against Freo today. Interstate wins have been few and far between in recent years, so congrats to the lads. BUT, that first quarter was inexcusable and so too was our finishing in front of goals (again). So... I've got three words for you ... too predictable, no structure and poor finishing. Only one forward option: We still go to Fev too often as if he is the only option up front. We have the odd game here and there where we mix it up and have done it very well, but that doesn't happen often enough. Carlos has been playing up front lately, even when we may have needed him for a defensive option, so I guess the coaching staff are trying something. But they need to keep trying. Remember, noone in the herd controls the herd, so we need to make it unpredictable. No structure: In a sense this ties in with the previous para, it's all Fev or nothing. And if that means Fev having a shot outside 50 on the boundary line then we'll still take that option. Worse, if Fev takes the mark he rarely, if ever, contemplates looking inside to a teammate in a better position. Of course, this is a flow on effect because noone offers any leads because they know they're unlikely to be honoured. Further to that, there's the old chestnut of double/triple teaming of Fevola. Where are our free men? What about creating space, decoy leads? All pretty basic stuff. Frontal pressure: Do we even know what that is? Well, yes, of course we do, at times we apply great pressure inside our F50, but too often teams run it out without a care in the world. I know we can't expect to lock the ball inside our 50 every time our opponents have the ball, but we need to get better at minimising those instances. Our finishing in front of goals: In 2009 it has been shit. It has cost us games we should have won and very nearly cost us again today. I don't care what the reasons are we just need to @#$%&! fix it! Every week. Not some band-aid one week solution. I'm not sure what plans/practice we have in place for our goal kicking at training, but it's not working. Fev used to convert at comfortably over 60%, now, he's missing more than he gets. This further exacerbates the "Fev is the only option" problem. If you look at the bigger picture the team is getting better and players are improving in general terms. But, if we are fair dinkum we need to start fine tuning. And quickly!

Author:	Navy Blue Horse [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
The answer is WIGGINS

Author:	budzy [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
Hopefully Setant is gaining the confidence of his team mates. He was rewarded today. What a dream come true it would be if we had 2 effective tall forward options.

Author:	Sydney Blue [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
Our forward structure has been terrible for years now - It is just the rest has improved so we notice it more. Fev demands the ball so they kick it to him -if they dont kick it to him he drops his bundle and it effects the whole team I prepared to say the blame lies fairly and squarely with the forward coach - How Lappin was appointed in charge of the forwards is a bit perplexing when you consider most of foot ball he played up there was quite selfish and he was moved to defence later in life . As far as kicking for goal well thats no worse than our field kicking and it reflects on the scoreboard . We are a 50/ 50 chance of kicking a goal and we are a 50/50 chance of hitting a target in play Could the kicking be the Nike boots

Author:	Melvey [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
The problem is how we go about getting the ball to our forwards. To many time we kick the ball long and not try hit up other options than Fev Must persist with Setanta as a forward (though im not getting that excited we did play freo). Wiggins must come in for Fisher...... Fisher is a waste of space Fev, Setanta and Wiggins around Betts and Garlett.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25337	Page 1 of 2

Author:	camel [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
budzy wrote: Hopefully Setant is gaining the confidence of his team mates. He was rewarded today. What a dream come true it would be if we had 2 effective tall forward options. Absolutely! I love Carlos and he is more effective with his kicking than dumb arse commentators realise, but at the end of the day a Fev-Carlos pairing is not going to be as effective on a consistent basis like the good years Brisbane have received from Brown-Bradshaw, or that St Kilda is getting in 2009 from Riewoldt-Kosi. Though, to be fair, effective and consistent tall forward pairings are pretty rare. The Bulldogs have shown you can make do with what you have (for the most part anyway) with good skills and forward planning. Our skills have been much better at other times this year than they were today, and hopefully improved confidence will bring improved skills. We still need to get better with our structures and finishing though. I didn't mention Eddie earlier, who has been great this year on the whole. I don't care how tall our forwards are, we just need to provide enough opportunities for our "other targets" to score bags of three and four each week. They may not do it, but we need to give them the chance to do it.

Author:	Koro [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
I think we have most of the components needed for a functional forward line, but it hasn't been set up well enough yet, and of course we are entirely too Fev-centered. It worked well with Setanta coming out of the square and Fev 20m in front of that. Once Warnock gets fit and playing, then I'm hoping Kreuzer gets more time in the 50. I don't think Fisher is the future. Doesn't have a long enough kick to make him a lead up forward. A great mark, but unfortunately I don't think he will take us any further. Having Walker back will help too. He was rather handy up forward when he came back late last year. As for the small forwards, Betts of course. Garlett and Yarran will be there, but not in 2009. Garlett needs some more experience and bulk. I'd like to see Ellard given a few games in a pocket as he has been putting in the hard yards in the twos. The last bloke who might be useful in Carrazzo. I can't decide whether he is best on the half back, in the guts or potentially on the half forward.

Author:	brad2311 [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
What shits me is our missed opportunities from kickable set shots. All players should have a set shot routine. If a player follows the routine and misses then badluck. If a player doesnt follow the routine and misses he should be held accountable. It's so frustrating watching sizzling bits of champagne football to hit a lead, only for the player to stuff up. EG by enforcing the routine, scenarios like fev missing against richmond in their 150th straight in front wont happen, i think he missed a simple 30 mtr out against the pies this season by trying to kick it out the G. Missing a reasonable set shot is such a downer for the rest of the team. It's borderline selfish if its an easy opportunity. As we're not that brilliant, so every genuine opportunity we have, we must capitalise.

Author:	barass [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
Not sure you can complain when you 35 shots for goal in the game (sorry don't know the inside 50 stats) which is a lot.... and I thought we created more space today than some other games. Gave Irish plenty of room to work in. Also thought our ball movement and spread definately assisted this (after 1/4 time).

Author:	4thchicken [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
camelboy wrote: Absolutely! I love Carlos and he is more effective with his kicking than dumb arse commentators realise, but at the end of the day a Fev-Carlos pairing is not going to be as effective on a consistent basis like the good years Brisbane have received from Brown-Bradshaw, or that St Kilda is getting in 2009 from Riewoldt-Kosi. Have said it previously - setanta's best position is as a forward however his development will be limited whilst we continue to have Fev as the main man/dominant forward. Trade Fev and setanta (and some of our other forwards) will flourish

Author:	nightcrawler [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
camelboy wrote: Let me start by saying I am rapted that we won ugly against Freo today. Interstate wins have been few and far between in recent years, so congrats to the lads. BUT, that first quarter was inexcusable and so too was our finishing in front of goals (again). So... I've got three words for you ... too predictable, no structure and poor finishing. Only one forward option: We still go to Fev too often as if he is the only option up front. We have the odd game here and there where we mix it up and have done it very well, but that doesn't happen often enough. Carlos has been playing up front lately, even when we may have needed him for a defensive option, so I guess the coaching staff are trying something. But they need to keep trying. Remember, noone in the herd controls the herd, so we need to make it unpredictable. No structure: In a sense this ties in with the previous para, it's all Fev or nothing. And if that means Fev having a shot outside 50 on the boundary line then we'll still take that option. Worse, if Fev takes the mark he rarely, if ever, contemplates looking inside to a teammate in a better position. Of course, this is a flow on effect because noone offers any leads because they know they're unlikely to be honoured. Further to that, there's the old chestnut of double/triple teaming of Fevola. Where are our free men? What about creating space, decoy leads? All pretty basic stuff. Frontal pressure: Do we even know what that is? Well, yes, of course we do, at times we apply great pressure inside our F50, but too often teams run it out without a care in the world. I know we can't expect to lock the ball inside our 50 every time our opponents have the ball, but we need to get better at minimising those instances. Our finishing in front of goals: In 2009 it has been shit. It has cost us games we should have won and very nearly cost us again today. I don't care what the reasons are we just need to !@#$%& fix it! Every week. Not some band-aid one week solution. I'm not sure what plans/practice we have in place for our goal kicking at training, but it's not working. Fev used to convert at comfortably over 60%, now, he's missing more than he gets. This further exacerbates the "Fev is the only option" problem. If you look at the bigger picture the team is getting better and players are improving in general terms. But, if we are fair dinkum we need to start fine tuning. And quickly! I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed this season. But we can still get some value out of the next 8 weeks if we're smart about it. Stage 1 - The MC finish swallowing their pride and leave Setanta forward for the next 8 weeks. He keeps doing what he's doing. The mids will begin to realise someone other than Fev can take a mark and win a contest. Fev realises with a partner up forward, he gets one less opponant, he doesn't need to do i all himself, and he doesn't have to take himself and his man to contests other people are winning. We may need consultants to explain this to Fev using some sort of pictorial representation. In other words, spend the rest of the season letting everyone develop some confidence in Setanta, and letting Fev and O'Hailpin work out how to play around each other. Stage 2 - Sit Chris Yarran down after the post season wash-up and tell him we want him to kick 40 goals off the HFF next season (in place of Brad Fisher), have Cordy tatoo a training program on his chest, and make Chris Judd his training partner. Stage 3 - make Austin and Warnock weights partners and lock them in the gym. Stage 4 - spend a pre-season working out fwd structures and drilling. Stage 5 - Austin to CHB, Warnock to the ruck rotaing through FP with Krezuer. Waite to the wing with a licence to roam. Stage 6 - Think of a more understated membership slogan. Something like "F@$% Essendon*". Season to taste.

Author:	aramari [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
4thchicken wrote: camelboy wrote: Absolutely! I love Carlos and he is more effective with his kicking than dumb arse commentators realise, but at the end of the day a Fev-Carlos pairing is not going to be as effective on a consistent basis like the good years Brisbane have received from Brown-Bradshaw, or that St Kilda is getting in 2009 from Riewoldt-Kosi. Have said it previously - setanta's best position is as a forward however his development will be limited whilst we continue to have Fev as the main man/dominant forward. Trade Fev and setanta (and some of our other forwards) will flourish We're too scared to trade Fev when he's kicking goals. When he isn't we expect to get his peak market value. I may be wrong, but he's probably worth a first and second rounder to the right club. Setanta, Waite, Yarran, Kreuzer, Walker, Garlett, Betts - there's no shortage of x-factor there, some is raw. Trade Fev and phase out Houla, Fisher, Cloke. That's a start. If we trade Fev we should have 4 top 25 picks. 2/3 of those 4 picks should be forwards. One Ballantyne/LeCras type one big but mobile key forward and one quick marking / lead up forward. We've been afraid for far too long. Let's be bold!

Author:	fraser murphy [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
nightcrawler wrote: I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed this season. But we can still get some value out of the next 8 weeks if we're smart about it. Stage 1 - The MC finish swallowing their pride and leave Setanta forward for the next 8 weeks. He keeps doing what he's doing. The mids will begin to realise someone other than Fev can take a mark and win a contest. Fev realises with a partner up forward, he gets one less opponant, he doesn't need to do i all himself, and he doesn't have to take himself and his man to contests other people are winning. We may need consultants to explain this to Fev using some sort of pictorial representation. In other words, spend the rest of the season letting everyone develop some confidence in Setanta, and letting Fev and O'Hailpin work out how to play around each other. Stage 2 - Sit Chris Yarran down after the post season wash-up and tell him we want him to kick 40 goals off the HFF next season (in place of Brad Fisher), have Cordy tatoo a training program on his chest, and make Chris Judd his training partner. Stage 3 - make Austin and Warnock weights partners and lock them in the gym. Stage 4 - spend a pre-season working out fwd structures and drilling. Stage 5 - Austin to CHB, Warnock to the ruck rotaing through FP with Krezuer. Waite to the wing with a licence to roam. Stage 6 - Think of a more understated membership slogan. Something like "F@$% Essendon*". Season to taste. Am in complete agreement on every point, even the ridiculous ones. POW

Author:	ScottSaunders [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
nightcrawler wrote: Stage 6 - Think of a more understated membership slogan. Something like "F@$% Essendon*". Season to taste. hahaha, thats gold. but i think we are worrying about nothing. i dont think any of us realise just how much difference Warnock will make to our side. with Warnock in the ruck, sharing the load with Hampson, which allows Kreuzer to go forward we will have a totally different forward structure. Through both Waite and Walker onto the wings and i start to drool. play simpson out of defence. i just see him and Chris Johnson, as massively damaging players streaming off the half back line, both can run and both use the ball very well. With Kruzer, Setanta and Fevola up forward, you have three makring options. You also have a Yarren, Garlett and Robinson floating around the big three. 1 per tall and you have a crumbing line as good as any going around. Where is betts you ask? I think he has the engine and the skill to start playing a serious role in the midfield. I liken him to a better and quicker Leon Davis. With him roatating through the midfield with judd/gibbs/murphy/grigg/jospeh (he has the ability to become an elite tagger in the ilk of Ling) we are getting that 7 or 8 full time midfielders that will be awesome. With both Simpson and Johnson running off the back line, and with improvement of Austin to play a true CHB role, bower/jamison//thorton for the talls and browne/armfield to run with the smalls our defence is only going to improve. we need to improve of that there is no doubt, but i think for us, its more about time, and allowing some of our options to develop, rather than needing anything special in the draft. we have the p[layers there, we just need time and patience, for both the players to develop, and for the game plan to develop as well.

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Author:	grrofunger [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock

Author:	fraser murphy [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
grrofunger wrote: there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock Do you not rate him grrro or are you simply suggesting that he is not the magic bullet that some posters believe he is?

Author:	camel [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
barass wrote: Not sure you can complain when you 35 shots for goal in the game (sorry don't know the inside 50 stats) which is a lot.... and I thought we created more space today than some other games. Gave Irish plenty of room to work in. Also thought our ball movement and spread definately assisted this (after 1/4 time). 35 shots and 19 misses. I think that is grounds for complaint. If that sort of conversion was a rarity then, yeah, take the positive spin for sure. But in 2009, our conversion has been poor across the board.

Author:	camel [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
grrofunger wrote: there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock From a structure point of view the theory of playing Special K up forward is a good one. He's a good mark, pretty reliable kick and has footy smarts ahead of his time in the game. Plus he has the versatility to play ruck if required, even if just to mix things up a bit. You know, unpredictable and all that. But that theory relies on Warnock being a consistent performer at AFL level. And, so far, we have nothing to judge him on. At this stage, then, reliance on 206 to fulfil a key role is, yeah I'm with grro, a bit optimistic for mine.

Author:	aramari [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Our forwardline - its structure and effectiveness
grrofunger wrote: there is gonna be so much dissapointment with warnock I agree that some are hanging too much on his importance as a ruckman and, structurally, with the hope that Kreuz is a gun forward just waiting to explode. But it sounds like you don't rate him as a player - I think he'll be handy next year and really good thereafter. There's still a lot of unknowns with him though: how is he with the extra size? injuries, mobility, fitness, strength. I think with the question marks we overpaid a little - wish we'd kept pick 56...