After watching the game I thought the defence seemed very settled tonight. Thought the umpiring in the first quarter was atrocious and that the frees paid to the Saints players for goals and the frees blantantly missed by the umps for FEV were beyond disgraceful and cost us the match BUT to thier credit our defence held thier heads high and as the game progressed saw real drive (especially from Bower) out of defence and up the guts.

Austin and Jammo were terrific and AJ stepped up even further in my opinion ... Absolute gun!

Is it an option now to keep the defence as is for the scum and play T-Bird up forward?

All I can say is that if the defence can play like that week in week out couldn't we use T-bird as a forward option instead of maybe Houlihan. From what I saw in the Adelaide game (shocking I know but T-bird was a highlight up forward, for the small amount of time he was there) he could add that Waite type role up there and give us a much needed boost up forward not to mention his defencive skills which would keep the ball up there more often than not .... could be the difference next game.

Hope Ratts and the MC are thinking along those lines after the defence did themselves proud tonight.

One also has to remember that St Kilda have smashed everyboddy's defensive units all year and except for the first 15 minutes (with questionable umpiring to boot) our boys held thier own, kept thier heads and in my mind looked extremely composed and gifted.

Would love to know if any TCer sees what I think is glaringly obvious given a great effort by the defence tonight.

I Dont know why Carlton supporters are still complaining about fev not kicking free kicks. get use to it we have to make do with a full foward who doesnt get them and work around it.

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It's not the size of the man in the fight,but the size of the fight in the man

With the emergence of Jamison Austin & Bower I think tbird will start to feel the pressure in the near future as far as tall defensive roles are concerned.

I don't think tbird has the footspeed to be an option up forward. I can see the opposition exploiting that by running off him.

I'd trade him if someone offered a decent draft pick.

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There's so much I could say...

Waite going down is a blessing in disguise for Bower and Jammo.

Both are proving to Ratts that they can hold down the key posts down back and no need to keep shuffling them around and now they can finally settle down.

T-bird can play a more creative role of half back. Over the preseason id get him running, run run and run.

Last night we could have used Waitey forward to take the heat off Fev.

I'd prefer Hampson get that role then Thornton.

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#23: Lachlan Henderson

You see Bower with the ball in defence and he'll run forward and create options for us...you see Thornton get the ball at half back and slow us right down. The defence looked much better without him.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Don't think it is quite as simple as that. Bower is making the rebound his specialty but this is also a trait a lot of Blues supporters loved about Thornton not so long ago. Thornton also consistently takes a big grab. He may have made the difference last night.

In a rebounding sense, I agree it did.

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There's so much I could say...

Agree 100% Melvey. Waite going down may in the long term be as beneficial for us as Hille going down will be for Essendon*.

If Jamison, Bower, Thornton and Austin can hold down the backline for the rest of the season, and the match committee feel that Waite hasn't been too missed down there, it may confirm in their minds that Waite can play forward next year.

There is no doubt in my mind that the missing piece in our jigsaw (assuming that Warnock holds down first ruck when he comes in) is CHF. Setanta was willing last night, but we missed someone being able to take 7-10 marks across half forward. I am warming more and more to the idea of a 2 pronged tall forward line (Fevola and Waite/Kreuzer), with 4 mids and smalls around them. Hopefully Waite going down will precipitate that happening.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Whoah, Waite went down a couple of times in that post...

I don't know who Thornton would have played on last night. No way he could've gone with Volt and Jamison easily went with Koschitzke.

Thornton has never rebounded out of defence with purpose...he will go sideways and to the safe option.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Thornton's a conundrum at the moment.

In my very humble opinion, the thing with Thornton is that he is a safe fullback in that, one-out in a test of strength etc, he's not too bad except against those gorillas like Brown (we saw that last week), Kosi, Roughead etc. Against smaller KP forwards like Lloyd, Welsh, His disposal over short distances is generally pretty good. In a fullback, that's your primary concern, that your fullback generally takes the safe option and executes that 95% of the time which he does.

However, with the move of Thornton up the ground to CHB, 3rd tall defender, the traits that so endeared him to us for a few years in our darkest period are unfortunately a hindrance to our side. CHB and anyone on the HB line have to be able to move the ball with pace, precision and panache off HB, through the corridor and still be able to take the safe option if required. Because we look better when we attack rather than trying to slug it out defensively, Thornton's strengths are unfortunately a team weakness. Austin is a far better rebounder than Thornton, just as good in the spoil and has considerable bulk and strength to add.

I'm a big fan of Austin and lest you Thornton supporters think that this clouds my judgment, think about the way that Waite plays. He has pace, panache and created a lot of drive out of the middle, drive that is now also the domain of Paul Bower. Losing him is a big loss but I believe Bower has stepped up in the last couple of games. The run, the risk and ultimately the rewards of having a guy like this who can take the game on are immense. I think Austin provides very similar, if a bit slower, he will have the frame to be able to take on the power forwards as Jamison has done so well (a few weeks of poor form notwithstanding).

Where does this leave Thornton? Interesting question. With Waite to come back next year and Walker (who could probably do the job Bower is doing), the question is, is he surplus to backline requirements? The obvious option is to try him at CHF but I'm not entirely sure his pace on the lead is going to be enough. Setanta, who although he only had 10 possessions, had a decent presence at CHF last night.

Sadly therefore, I think it's either the forward line or trade for Thornton; unless he can modify his game to take more risks and take the game on off HB, then I think we may be better off trading for another decent draft pick or a KP forward. Having said that, he is valuable insurance; he is not a bad player at all but an automatic first choice like he has been for the last 8 years? Probably not.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Agree with that. Ironic as it is that after crying out for KP backs we're now in surplus!

It may be an entry into the difficult drafts that lie ahead.

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"It was like calling your ex girlfriend after a night on the booze, just a really bad decision".

Surely we have to consider our options...if you have a surplus in one area you need to think about what you can get in return by trading.

We are yet to trade into a draft and especially this year we need to do our best to get some extra picks.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

It's a funny one but T-Bird has played in an era where we were belted from pillar to post on the field and I think his safe options of side ways kicking and backward kicking are in-bred from that time.

Bower isn't a by product of that era which is why he takes the game on and runs the ball out really well. He hasn't had the fear of stuffing up tattooed on his brain.

Not sure if T-Bird should move forward but based on last night's game and the match-ups that worked okay apart from the first 20 mins, it would have been great to see what he did have to offer in the F50.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

You're all in la-la land about Thornton's willingness to take off and run. As Orangewhip noted, he does do it; when thrown forward against Adelaide, and when his opponent has pushed into their defence.

It's his skill set that lets him down, and he understands this. Plays the safe option. Agree that he is trade material, we need to get another Jamison type on our list; height, burst and balance, basic skills acceptable. I'm sure there's a few of those in second & third rounds of the draft.

As for this season, you need to bring him back in but I think forward is the go. Has the defensive capabilities to consistently create a contest in the air, good lead, good set shot. Good skills below the knees for a bloke his size. I think he can tackle, but he's often chopping off leads so you don't see a lot of it.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.