Well we know that you want to get rid of the entire senior list

Well we know that you think that finishing on the bottom is the best thing for the club.

The question I have and I have asked before without an answer is this.

How long do you think we should stay on the bottom before we start back toward the top?

1 year, 2 years 5 years? How long?

I want to know because there are plently of others things I can do on a weekend instead of watching us lose. Don't worry I will still buy my membership.

Yours in Good faith

Mark



PS I note that your model 'club' is struggling a bit, personally I reckon its the coach.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Interesting comment, how many other people only want to watch Carlton games when we win ?

Furthermore, what does that say about the general attitude of our supporter base ?

Is this the first sign of the 'fairweather' supporter ?

How much can you miss the point by?

An uncalled for and inflammatory response, BBB.

Mark is clearly making the point that, if Carlton embarks on a policy of deliberately being crap in order to facilitate the rebound, then he's not interested.

A bit different to a 'fairweather' supporter, wouldn't you say?

I know everyone hates see us lose a lot of games.

But the way we are now, thats just what we will do.

I think we are a good chance for a pp on our form to date irrespective of how hard we try.

Peopl only want us on the bottom fopr the minimum time possible.

I think that if we choose wisely at the end of 2005 and continue developing our players, we will only be down for this year.

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My Blue Heaven

but do you want to go see a side deliberately losing?

I know my son doesn't. He just isn't interested and I cannot convince him that we are not trying to lose. He said again yesterday 'but they are not trying dad so it doesn't matter.'


I tell you again this is a massive shift in how/why we support a club.


But it is the only game in town so

take it

or as Mark says

do something else for a while.

I am secretly hoping in fact that we are witnessing another player revolt which i would prefer (how weird is that!!!) to a deliberate attempt to finish last and get picks (and yes I know talent blah @#$%&! blah @#$%&! blah).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I would rather watch us try our guts out week in and week out, and lose 22 matches against better teams than to see them turn into a pack of pussies.

If we're not good enough, that's one thing, but if we don't try, that's just PATHETIC.

Do people respect St Kilda's "ressurection"?

I know I don't.

I want us to rise again as a power, the likes of which hasn't been seen for decades, but I don't want to see it happen on the back of laying down for half a season.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

but you know what - not a saints fan out there who gives a toss if you respect them or not - which I think is also kinda Mark's point (even if he didn't mean it to be so).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You enjoy the wins when they come, and enjoy them tremendously. And I'm sure that's true for Synbad as well.

It's just that when you don't win, and you know you've got a weak list (I'd argue it's still the weakest in the competition, even though it's improved over the last year or so), you try and keep the long-term view in mind, and take comfort in that.

The reality is that we need to bottom-out for 2 years (which we weren't allowed to do 2 years ago) under the current recruiting rules, before we can really start to compete with the best talent-wise.

I actually support the current MC strategy. Try like knackery early in the year to set yourself up with a chance. And if that doesn't work out, then take the long-term view. (It's not as though playing Johnston and Diggers and Bowyer is going to win us many games anyway!).

I'm a Carlton supporter, not an AFL supporter. The only thing that keeps me watching AFL games is my love of Carlton. I hate every other club, and I hate the people that administer the game.
It's no longer a competition, it's a production, and while not exactly stage managed it's massaged subtly to "maximise revenue".

That there are so many supporters from different clubs so openly stating their wish for priority picks is an indictment on the state of the game.

Mark is right.

How did everyone feel yesterday when we lost. Like crap.

A top round pick does not guarantee a superstar. Comprehend it, understand it, it is true.

We play to win, we always play the best we can win lose or draw, or we fold the club up & go do something else.

Simple as that!

I hate my club losing it hurts like hell & I will not tolerate a club that shows it's history & supporters disrespect by not busting it's ass to win.

I don't believe that a Carlton side would do that.

Not trying to be inflammatory at all John, just asking a question as to whether this is going to be the attitude of a number of supporters. If this, is the case, then is this going to directly impact upon our membership numbers and attendances at home games ?

The club has worked hard over the past few seasons to improve the membership base plus the move away from Princes Park was all about getting better $$$ in the door. Now if this latest round off non-performances is going to have a severe effect on these two important revenue streams, then the club is in even more trouble than we could have imagined.

All clubs have 'fairweather' supporters, hell, Sydney has a full chardonnay set who only turn up when the team is on a roll. I'd hate to see the mindset of the Carlton supporter base be dramatically transformed due to this extended period of success starvation.

We're now just one Collingwood win away from the bottom. Now down to 15th, just 2 points above them with Hawks about to beat the Dockers.

No one said anything about not trying - I think we tried yesterday - but we just weren't any good, and I certainly did not like watching that either.

All that anyone is saying (and have been saying all along) is that the only way you can significantly improve your list in a hurry is to access a Priority Pick and a low pick in the PSD to snag an uncontracted high profile player.

No -one is talking about not trying or tanking or sandbagging to engineer a lower finish.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

First time I have ever been called a fairweather supporter.

BBB, I go to the footy to watch a team try, to bust a gut, even if they are crap. If we finish last I can wear that. I went to every game in 2002.

But I will not go if the club makes a deliberate decision to stooge arouned the bottom for a few years in order to pick up PPs and early drafts picks with no guarantee of success. I have termed it the 'losing to win' mentality. To take the St Kilda path will undo everything the club has tried to rebuild in the last couple of years.

Supporters are not stupid, they want a successful team but they also want a team that will wear the jumper with pride everytime they run out and as soon as they sense that the club is not doing that they will walk away.

The question I have asked more than once of the supporters of the "Losing to Win' methodlogy is how long to the they expect it to take before it starts working and I am yet to recievce an answer. BBB do you have an answer?

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I'm with you Mark.

There's more respect to be had wearing the jumper with pride and playing as hard as you can, even if you lose. That's why players like Robert Harvey are respected by the AFL public. Will Milne, Gehrig or Hamill get the same respect? Not if they paid for it....

I would rather see my team play with pride in our Famous Navy Blue and lose to better teams than to turn round, bend over, spread wide, and grab the ankles...Cos you know who'll be doing th reaming, don't you?

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Its not hard BlueMark, until you turn your list over enough to get some quality in it. The higher you finish the longer it will take as your draft picks are higher. Logic tells me you need a few top 5 draft picks in your side. Sure you might find a "golden nugget" at 12, 18 or 30 - but these days the talent identification is better than it was even in 2000.

But hey if you think we can turn the list around with 5 years of finishing around 10th with 7th and 19th pick in the Draft - then I am sure our Recruiting Department would love to hear from you.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Look at the Kangaroos. Perfect example of a team that finishes 9-12 every year yet does not make any progress

Get real! The Roos were in the finals from 93 to 2001. They won a flag in 96, and 99, went to prelims in 95 and 97. They're still on the way down off that high.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.