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Issues arising from today's game
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Author:  Effes [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Issues arising from today's game
I tipped Sydney because I thought our bodies are still too small to compete with a hardened, strong team like Sydney on the SCG who would force many stoppages to take advantage of their dominance in the ruck.

Darren Jolly easily monstered Kreuzer and Jacobs...we knew this would happen before the game.

Knowing these, I have to wonder why we don't employ more tactics knowing that we will lose the hitouts. One occassion is a stoppage in our defensive 50. EVeryone knows which teams ruckman/midfielder combination will be at these stoppages. For Port Adelaide it is Lade to Burgoyne. For Sydney it is Jolly to McVeigh. Why wouldn't our midfielders be awake to this and put an extra body in front of McVeigh to stop him running at the ball. It doesn't have to be obvious enough to give away a free kick but enough to stop him running to the drop of the ball.

One other tactic, or lack thereof is the third man up at the stoppage. Adelaide used this last week against Sandilands. You would think us coming up against such a big ruckman would try to get a third man up at the stoppage to limit Jolly's influence.

Lack of system moving the ball forward from defence. We know certain teams won't put a loose man into defence (Collingwood) yet others such as Sydney will. This is known a long time before we play them.

Knowing this we still have players, who from marks, kick the ball to Fevola while he still has three opponents on him. It's not as though they've been called to play on or they're being chased by defenders. They have the time to make a decision. Why do they either have no option to kick to or even with other options available still kick it to Fev.

This is all with the biggest man on the ground - Jolly - standing in front of Fev. Your eyesight doesn't have to be that good to see Jolly standing in front of Fevola.

I can forgive some of the younger players like Joseph doing it as they may feel they need to give the ball to the senior players, but for players such as Waite and Stevens (for example, there were others) to kick it to Fevola while he has a very tall opponent in front of him is inexcusable. I would have thought Ratten now into his second year would have had enough time to formulate some forward line system to bring the ball forward against teams who have loose men in defence.

We move the ball fine when
a) We win a clean clearance in the middle and with loose men in defence can still pinpoint targets
b) We play teams such as Collingwood who don't put loose men in defence.

The other matter was no kickout strategy. Johnson was forced into the pocket - if that kick hit the target we we then predictably bombed the ball down the line and Sydney would, as they love to do every week, force the ball out of bounds for a throw in. Surely now in Ratten's second year there should be some kickout strategy in place but there doesn't appear to be so.

After that rant my post is quite contradictory...if we had taken our opportunities early in the game I believe we would have gone on to win it, but for the second week in a row we were unable to finish off.

It would be demoralising as a midfielder seeing all your hard work go to waste...and I think we saw that as the game went on, with our midfielders work rate dropping off and Sydney getting on top out of the middle. One other factor that I've noticed - may not be true - is that we seem to be having a lot of shots from tough angles.
Author:  17th Premiership [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
One technique I spotted a few times today was for Jacobs or Kruezer to win a clean, controlled tap but straight to a Swans player...

Where has our much vaunted tackling gone??? The tackling is what breaks the game up for our mids to control the match. Without that, we don't have the strength to win control.
Author:  Stefchook [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Our pace is an issue. Got some quick players on the list, but probably need another couple in the senior team. Especially when we're struggling to get our hands on the ball. It's one of the reasons why our tackle count has been dropping.

Also our ball movement out of defence is an issue. It's good we've learn to control the ball, and move the ball patiently. But we need some more tricks. The last 2 games we've really, really struggled after the first 15 minutes to get much quick ball movement. Perhaps opposition teams have figured out how to combat what we were doing earlier in the season.

Some of the really new players look like they need a rest.
Author:  blue terrace boy [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
ballwatching
Author:  Effes [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Wonder what people think about Gibbs role. Is he playing too much behind the ball? Wouldn't we rather he be delivering the ball inside 50 as most of the time he makes the right decisions. Or have we put him there due to the lack of good decision makers in defence?
Author:  verbs [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
The drill practiced during the week running back with the flight of the ball would've worked a treat coming off the flanks today, but it never happened.
Author:  Melvey [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Its seems as if our players have been programed to look for the quick give backwards for there first option or when take i mark run back a few steps then assess there options.

Again the supposed 2009 'WE ARE COMING' version of Carlton looked exactly like the 2008 version. Slow, one dimensional and play wide. The only change i've seen with the 2009 version is we seem to leave the corridor wide open for teams to run through..... 'THEY KNOW WE HAVE YET PROVE ANYTHING'
Author:  verbs [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Melvey wrote:
'THEY KNOW THEY WE HAVE YET PROVE ANYTHING'


TRUE WE THEY PROVE THING IF BUT TRY HARDER
Author:  Effes [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Here is my hacky visual attempt of where I think we struggle when we move the ball out of defence and when the oppositon move out of defence. First image is when the opposition bring it out of defence, second is when we bring it out of defence.

Image

Image

When the opposition have the ball in their defensive 50 IMO we flood too early...look at the amount of space that is available from half back up until the wing. This allows the opposition to bring the ball up the ground under no pressure. Once they have the ball at half forward, they still find space to kick short to someone inside 50. This indicates to me that even though we are flooding, we aren't concentrating when it comes to the opposition's final kick inside 50. Look at the amount of times Sydney had it about 65m out but were still able to find someone inside 50 even though we had heavily flooded.

This gets back to the initial setup and what is shown in the second image. We should be pushing more numbers up the ground so that there isn't the space for the opposition to bring the ball up to the half forward line. It's as though we are conceeding the ball until 60m out from our defensive 50.

When we have the ball the opposition push numbers up to the wing AND push numbers into the middle or across to the other wing...I can't do stuff in paint very well but basically they flood the wing and the middle of the ground. If we switch the ball they then move players to the other wing.

Yet all we do in this situation is bomb the ball down the line and hope to win the ball when it hits the ground. Against a team with bigger bodies like Sydney we struggle.

What other options does Ratten have to bring the ball out of defence? It's very stop start...take a mark, look up and see nothing there and then chip it sideways to Waite or Thornton. You see some teams create space by having players lead into the centre of the ground, and then one or two players leading back out to the wing where space has been created. To me there doesn't appear to be much strategy to moving the ball.
Author:  badbuzz [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Great in hindsight, but I was a little surprised we didn't take them on (running through the lines) or kicking through the corridor. I don't think we really tested their endurance and pace around the ground. Yes we are actuely aware of the confines of the SCG, compared to other grounds, but sydney have a number of players who are not blessed with pace. Also, why are we trying to tap the ball at the feet of our players, when their strength is the close in tight work. Could we not look at setting our play outside, allowing players to run onto the ball.

Very dissappointed as we looked very slow and awkard. More so, for the fact that an opposition coach can look at making one or two changes, which apparently has a diaboloical impact to our chances of winning the game.

Come on Blues. Have we actually turned the corner!!

A side note, it is now two teams we have played which when given the opportunity mentioned how they were keen to play team footy to beat individuals. If that is the theme, by which opposition teams, are using toget up against us, Ratts and co need to quash it very quickly.

Keeping the faith!!

Go Blues.
Author:  Michael Jezz [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Effes wrote:
I tipped Sydney because I thought our bodies are still too small to compete with a hardened, strong team like Sydney on the SCG who would force many stoppages to take advantage of their dominance in the ruck.

Darren Jolly easily monstered Kreuzer and Jacobs...we knew this would happen before the game.

Knowing these, I have to wonder why we don't employ more tactics knowing that we will lose the hitouts. One occassion is a stoppage in our defensive 50. EVeryone knows which teams ruckman/midfielder combination will be at these stoppages. For Port Adelaide it is Lade to Burgoyne. For Sydney it is Jolly to McVeigh. Why wouldn't our midfielders be awake to this and put an extra body in front of McVeigh to stop him running at the ball. It doesn't have to be obvious enough to give away a free kick but enough to stop him running to the drop of the ball.

One other tactic, or lack thereof is the third man up at the stoppage. Adelaide used this last week against Sandilands. You would think us coming up against such a big ruckman would try to get a third man up at the stoppage to limit Jolly's influence.

Lack of system moving the ball forward from defence. We know certain teams won't put a loose man into defence (Collingwood) yet others such as Sydney will. This is known a long time before we play them.

Knowing this we still have players, who from marks, kick the ball to Fevola while he still has three opponents on him. It's not as though they've been called to play on or they're being chased by defenders. They have the time to make a decision. Why do they either have no option to kick to or even with other options available still kick it to Fev.

This is all with the biggest man on the ground - Jolly - standing in front of Fev. Your eyesight doesn't have to be that good to see Jolly standing in front of Fevola.

I can forgive some of the younger players like Joseph doing it as they may feel they need to give the ball to the senior players, but for players such as Waite and Stevens (for example, there were others) to kick it to Fevola while he has a very tall opponent in front of him is inexcusable. I would have thought Ratten now into his second year would have had enough time to formulate some forward line system to bring the ball forward against teams who have loose men in defence.

We move the ball fine when
a) We win a clean clearance in the middle and with loose men in defence can still pinpoint targets
b) We play teams such as Collingwood who don't put loose men in defence.

The other matter was no kickout strategy. Johnson was forced into the pocket - if that kick hit the target we we then predictably bombed the ball down the line and Sydney would, as they love to do every week, force the ball out of bounds for a throw in. Surely now in Ratten's second year there should be some kickout strategy in place but there doesn't appear to be so.

After that rant my post is quite contradictory...if we had taken our opportunities early in the game I believe we would have gone on to win it, but for the second week in a row we were unable to finish off.

It would be demoralising as a midfielder seeing all your hard work go to waste...and I think we saw that as the game went on, with our midfielders work rate dropping off and Sydney getting on top out of the middle. One other factor that I've noticed - may not be true - is that we seem to be having a lot of shots from tough angles.



What you are basically saying I will say straight. Ratten lacks tactical nouse and will always be outcoached by the Masters. He gets spanked by Roos, Craig, Thompson, Clarkson & lyon every time. He is a bad coach of tall players coaches them as midfielders & thinks its 1995 (win it in the center and your right). He needs to be surrounded by tacticians to be successful. Who in the coaches box has been part of a successful panel? Sorry, I hope Ratten comes good but he is as much the missing link for me as our lack of a center half back and center half forward.
Author:  blu944 [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
17th Premiership wrote:

Where has our much vaunted tackling gone???



Judd tackles, Hadley tackles, Gibbs is playing one handed, Grigg is still getting up to speed, AJ and Robbo are starting to feel the effects of consecutive games, Houlihan has never tackled, and Stevens and Murphy think they're too good to tackle
Author:  verbs [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
We haven't won in Sydney since before Parkin won our last premiership. Even Parkin couldn't win there since 1993, nor Brittain with a great side in 2000/2001, nor Pagan after that.

Ratten got us as close today as any of them did.

Just a pity he had to come up against the Master Coach. :screwy:
Author:  camel [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
GOAL KICKING! :mad:

Fix that and I dare say we'd have been a very good chance to be 4 from 4 with a pretty healthy percentage.
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Same old same old.....Game plan is kick to Fev and Fev only , nothing changes except Fev is now triple teamed instead of double teamed....Ratten doesnt react fast enough to game trends ie Rhys Shaw doing a Lovett and running unchecked.

Changing a few of the crew each time the ship goes of course isnt going to do anything....so those asking for selection changes on mass need to rethink.....The list isnt going to change so the gameplans/coaching has to.
The honeymoon is over and Brett Ratten needs to get TOUGH with his players and up the demands on them.....he needs to get better to make the players get better and no more soft mr nice guy approach.
Positives were nil IMHO....both Essendon* and Sydney are shite in fact the Swans were the weakest I have seen them and this week was worse than last week in terms of general play.
This bullshit with Johnson kicking out is also over........he aint that good that he can demand a place on kicking alone....you put Stevens and Johnson down back and you are two real defenders short before you start.
Holding the ball above your head and indicating we are playing keepings off is another piece of BS.....Stevie Wonder could have seen we were going to turn it over...criss cross kicks going nowhere eventually end up with a player who doesnt have the skills
to make it work and bingo...its another turnover.
FFS keep it simple and when in doubt...long kick along the boundary.....
Author:  Coach B [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
I was unfortunate enough to be at the game and the obvious weaknesses that popped up were as follows:
1. We miss Jamieson down back. Thorton just isn't good enough to take the number 2 forward. In my opinion his mistakes/turnovers have been instrumental in the last 2 weeks losses.
2. We went short far too often. Only when the game was lost did we kick a few long bombs into the forward line which brought Cloke and Betts into the game. Also we would string 10 handballs an 6 short kicks together and go nowhere and turn it over. One quick kick out of the pack and the Swans would be in for a quick shot at goal.
3. Went wide too often. This allowed the Swans to slow us down, limit our options and set up their attack on the reversal.
4. Not enough pressure on the ball.
5. Midfield beaten after quarter time.

CB
Author:  woof [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Michael Jezz wrote:
What you are basically saying I will say straight. Ratten lacks tactical nouse and will always be outcoached by the Masters. He gets spanked by Roos, Craig, Thompson, Clarkson & lyon every time. He is a bad coach of tall players coaches them as midfielders & thinks its 1995 (win it in the center and your right). He needs to be surrounded by tacticians to be successful. Who in the coaches box has been part of a successful panel? Sorry, I hope Ratten comes good but he is as much the missing link for me as our lack of a center half back and center half forward.


You left Rodney Eade out and John Worsfold is a premeirship coach and he is not on that list. Neil Craig is a good home and away coach but his teams fall apart in finals.
Here is one tactic; when you have momentum and control of the game make sure you hurt the opposition on the scoreboard, if you don't it will bite you in the arse.
Author:  Wojee [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues arising from today's game
Bad kicking is bad football.

Football is played in bursts of momentum, when you have the momentum you need to make it pay on the scoreboard, if you don't you'll get overrun when the other team is making the play.

But for terrible conversion in the last two weeks we'd in all likelihood be 4-0.
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