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Are we developing Premiership type depth?
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Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Are we developing Premiership type depth?
I know we still have a long way to go, and not all the kids will make it, but in my view we have;t had this sort of promising depth since ... well maybe not ever...

Note : I have Kruezer in the Second team, only bec I think Cloke is more physically ready right now in 2009 for CHF, and there’s no Interchange, and I want to place players in specific positions. Obviously he is in my Best 22 but for the purpose of this exercise he is in the Second 18.

I think most of you will agree most of the players in the Second 18 have some chance of making it. Even a player like Bannister showed something early last year that he could probably play a role in the Ones.

I don’t think we had this sort of depth since 1995, maybe even better than 1995 in terms of real depth (though not as proven at the top end, not yet anyhow).

FIRST 18
B Thornton, Jamison, Scotland
HB Stevens, Waite, Johnson
C Simpson, Gibbs, Walker
FOLL Warnock, Judd, Murphy
HF Russell, Cloke, Houlihan
F Betts, Fevola, Robinson

SECOND 18
B Bower, Setanta, Anderson
HB Browne, Austin, Bannister
C Grigg, Hadley, Armfield
FOLL Jacobs, Carrazzo, Joseph
HF Wiggins, Kruezer, Fisher
F Garlett, Hampson, Yarran

Players who can’t even get into the Second 18 : Bentley, Ellard, Edwards, Bentick, Hartlett, O’Keefe (if I had a chance to see more of him he’d prob be in the Second 18), Pfeiffer, etc
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
To have premiership type depth you need 6-7 really elite footballers then a group of 20-25 good honest footballers

At the moment we have 2 really elite footballers 3-4 who we are hoping will become elite and about 15-20 good honest footballers - then 8-10 kids who are coming on

I dont think we are there yet and won't be for a few years yet - we need a few of our youngs guns to take the next step into that elite level and I dont think they will do that until their bodies are physical enough to do it .

Watching Geelong against the Pies on friday night the thing that really stood out was the physical size of the cats compared to the pies . The Pies matched them for speed but the ability to break tackles or impose themselves at the contest was there for all to see .

The trick is that you need size but you have to maintain speed and most importantly you need skill .
Pagan embarked on the bigger bodies route but recruited blokes who were slow or who were poorly skilled

It may be quite a few years yet before we totally establish ourselves as a viable threat
Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
That's why I said 'developing'.

I think you have sort of missed the essence of the thread.
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
and I am saying I dont think it is depth that is the issue - we could make five changes every week and it wouldn't change the result - we need more elite
Author:  DocSherrin III [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Interesting take VB - but pretty sure the MC has Kreuzer, Bower and Grigg in the first 18.

WE are developing depth though, you're spot on. I think any comparison to '95 is a little bit of a stretch - we had recruited some experience to shore up positions in Spalding, Clape, Pearce and Hogg and they all came through for us that year. My take on depth comparison is more toward the infamous 'Baby Bomber' Essendon* team of 1993.

David Calthorpe, Mark Mercuri, Gavin Wanganeen, David Grenvold, Joe Misiti, Ricky Olarenshaw, Sean Denham, James Hird, Michael Long, Dustin Fletcher, Peter Somerville, Dean Wallis, Paul Hills, Chris Daniher, Tim Watson, Mark Harvey, Paul Salmon, Mark Thompson, Gary O'Donnell, Darren Bewick.

There's about 7 or 8 in that side that were in their 2nd or third year of senior footy...then a big jump to veterans - most in their prime. Our core 'veterans' in Houlihan, Fevola, Scotland and Judd don't quite add up to Watson, Harvey, Salmon, Thompson and O'Donnell, but I believe we have more talent among the younger brigade and that's important because we're short on quality footballers moving through into their mid-20's.

Attending yesterday's training session that featured those on the periphery really accentuates just how much depth we do have.
Author:  Melvey [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
I think in a few years will be a lack of talented forwards. No doubt the club must over the coming drafts address this issue because other than Fev we really lack young key position players and they don't grow on trees.

Out of all the teams i'd say we are in the bottom 4 of key position prospects and until we address this matter we may struggle to win our 17th
Author:  kaxsta [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Sydney Blue wrote:

Watching Geelong against the Pies on friday night the thing that really stood out was the physical size of the cats compared to the pies . The Pies matched them for speed but the ability to break tackles or impose themselves at the contest was there for all to see .


One thing I liked about our game against Geelong was that our tackles seemed to stick at least more than a few years ago. Maybe thats a sign that we are developing physically. Maybe the melbourne storm have helped the boys out on this?
Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Melvey wrote:
I think in a few years will be a lack of talented forwards. No doubt the club must over the coming drafts address this issue because other than Fev we really lack young key position players and they don't grow on trees.

Out of all the teams i'd say we are in the bottom 4 of key position prospects and until we address this matter we may struggle to win our 17th


That's prob why they seem hell bent on playing Hammer as a fwd, and you have to admit he is starting to come on a bit in that regard. Still has a ling way to go but he is catching a few in pre-season which is encouraging.
Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Dr.SHERRIN wrote:
Interesting take VB - but pretty sure the MC has Kreuzer, Bower and Grigg in the first 18.

WE are developing depth though, you're spot on. I think any comparison to '95 is a little bit of a stretch - we had recruited some experience to shore up positions in Spalding, Clape, Pearce and Hogg and they all came through for us that year. My take on depth comparison is more toward the infamous 'Baby Bomber' Essendon* team of 1993.

David Calthorpe, Mark Mercuri, Gavin Wanganeen, David Grenvold, Joe Misiti, Ricky Olarenshaw, Sean Denham, James Hird, Michael Long, Dustin Fletcher, Peter Somerville, Dean Wallis, Paul Hills, Chris Daniher, Tim Watson, Mark Harvey, Paul Salmon, Mark Thompson, Gary O'Donnell, Darren Bewick.

There's about 7 or 8 in that side that were in their 2nd or third year of senior footy...then a big jump to veterans - most in their prime. Our core 'veterans' in Houlihan, Fevola, Scotland and Judd don't quite add up to Watson, Harvey, Salmon, Thompson and O'Donnell, but I believe we have more talent among the younger brigade and that's important because we're short on quality footballers moving through into their mid-20's.

Attending yesterday's training session that featured those on the periphery really accentuates just how much depth we do have.


I guess my 1995 point was, how far did the list bat that year?

We had players like Manton on the bench, who wasn't a star then.

I reckon this list now is probably batting deeper, but as I said the top end is not as strong (yet)
Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Sydney Blue wrote:
and I am saying I dont think it is depth that is the issue - we could make five changes every week and it wouldn't change the result - we need more elite


That's why I said
Quote:
though not as proven at the top end
Author:  Melvey [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Virgin Blue wrote:
Melvey wrote:
I think in a few years will be a lack of talented forwards. No doubt the club must over the coming drafts address this issue because other than Fev we really lack young key position players and they don't grow on trees.

Out of all the teams i'd say we are in the bottom 4 of key position prospects and until we address this matter we may struggle to win our 17th


That's prob why they seem hell bent on playing Hammer as a fwd, and you have to admit he is starting to come on a bit in that regard. Still has a ling way to go but he is catching a few in pre-season which is encouraging.


It's not that easy to play a make shift forward especially when coming from a soccer background.

If i were in Ratts shoes id piss of Cam Cloke (just don't think he has anything more to offer and is a waste of space) and i'd beef up Walks and turn him into a forward. I'd have him and Waitey rooming dangerously around CHF and Fev out of the goal square. The three working as unit

Fev, Walks and Waite could be a dangerous mix in our attack with Mitch, Yarran, Betts and Houlahan at there feet

It's a different set up, Walks and Waite are mobile and both strong over head. Walks can take a screamer, can crumb goals and has pace to burn.

The issue with Waitey is that he has proven to be far more consistent down back. If you wanna wins games you got to kick more goals than your opponent
Author:  Virgin Blue [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Yes I think until the young defense gets more experienced, and a Bower or Austin really steps up more as a KPP, Waite will be needed down back.

To be honest, I am pretty happy with Betts, Yarran and Garlett. I think if we can start to dominate in midfield, then these 3 could start to clean up near goal. I think with flooding and zone defenses all the rage, small forwards might become even more important as they stand a better chance of cutting through the morass of defenders and scoring.
Author:  jt [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Melvey wrote:
Fev, Walks and Waite could be a dangerous mix in our attack with Mitch, Yarran, Betts and Houlahan at there feet


Geez that sounds like a good forward line...2 guys who can take a pack mark and be the focal point in Fev and Waite...looks dangerous on paper and highly skillful...and the forward line pressure would be immense.

id love to see that as i honestly dont think we need Waite in defence...but the MC dont agree.
Author:  camel [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
Interesting thread VB.

I guess until we see it for ourselves this is all potential quality. The ingredients are certainly there, that's for sure. That 2nd XVIII while not a world beating team by any means, still has some very good footballers in it.

Secondary to the playing list, but no less important in many ways, is the structures within the club to support the development of the playing list. Stability is the key with our young list.

The best thing is, it's more fun being a Carlton supporter heading into the 2009 season than it has been for a very long time. :smoking:
Author:  teagueyubeauty [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
List management, followed closely by development, is the most important part of the depth of a football club. We've had it easy over the last few years through the sheer weight of numbers. The numbers of our draft choices and the numbers of the no good footballers (in an AFL sense) we've had clogging the list.

The next 3 years are crucial to depth via list management. We shouldn't have the golden draft choices we've had and the list of "No brainers" delisted every year is getting shorter and shorter. Who we get and who we let go is the common denominator to great depth as we have our fair share of very good footballers now.

Hopefully we go the Geelong route and not the Richmond route.
Author:  woof [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
teagueyubeauty wrote:
Hopefully we go the Geelong route and not the Richmond route.


Kevin Sheedy says Richmond can win the flag this year. He says all it will take is for Geelong and Hawthorn to drop 5% and Richmond to improve 5% and the flag is in the bag.
Author:  AGRO [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
woof wrote:
teagueyubeauty wrote:
Hopefully we go the Geelong route and not the Richmond route.


Kevin Sheedy says Richmond can win the flag this year. He says all it will take is for Geelong and Hawthorn to drop 5% and Richmond to improve 5% and the flag is in the bag.



Mr Plonko has been on the sauce again. :screwy:
Author:  JohnM [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
In 2006, everyone was saying that Geelong's problem was they didn't have enough elite talent. Plenty of good, honest footballers... but due to their lack of top draft picks, the conventional wisdom was that they lacked the talent at the pointy-end to win a flag. There were many articles about this at the time.

And all of a sudden, a whole band of those 'good honest footballers' seemed to make the step into the elite bracket.

It's interesting how a powerful team dynamic can elevate the individuals within the team. Did those guys all of a sudden get better as individuals, or did something special happen as a group?

What I like is that we seem to be building a team, with a unity of purpose. This will take us far.
Author:  AGRO [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
JohnM wrote:
In 2006, everyone was saying that Geelong's problem was they didn't have enough elite talent. Plenty of good, honest footballers... but due to their lack of top draft picks, the conventional wisdom was that they lacked the talent at the pointy-end to win a flag. There were many articles about this at the time.

And all of a sudden, a whole band of those 'good honest footballers' seemed to make the step into the elite bracket.

It's interesting how a powerful team dynamic can elevate the individuals within the team. Did those guys all of a sudden get better as individuals, or did something special happen as a group?

What I like is that we seem to be building a team, with a unity of purpose. This will take us far.



It seems that Mr. Plonko is under the misapprehension caused by red wine coloured glasses that Richmond is endowed with this same band of 'good honest footballers'. :wink: :roll:


As for our side I think you are perfectly right JohnM. :smile:
Author:  DownUnderChick [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are we developing Premiership type depth?
It's an interesting point that JohnM raises and one that I actually applaud :clap:

IIRC way back in 2006/2007 Geelong initiated a training program with a company that included one Trent Hotten. The essence of the training/development was cited as being one of the catalyst that got Geelong off its duff and performing to the levels it has reached in the last few years.

Someone might want to add more to what the training/development was, but it's an excellent point and speaks volumes about the need for all 22+ players to take that same collective step forward [some might have to take more steps than others :cool: ] to achieve number 17.
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