Can we afford to carry Fevola AND Cloke in the one forwardline?

I missed the game on the weekend, but I listened to it on the radio which was quite a refreshing thing to do. Listening to the game via the radio enabled me to get a different perspective on the team’s structure. In particular, the commentators were saying that in today’s hard running game, with the heightened need to apply defensive pressure inside one’s F50, Carlton might find that they just cannot afford to have both Fevola AND Cloke in the one forwardline. The argument being that Fevola is not the most renowned of chasers (unless he’s got goal number 100 in his sights), and has added 11 kilos to his already big body, and Cloke as we know is not quick at all (granted apparently he has good endurance).

My question then is, despite having improved a bit lately, are Cloke’s days nonetheless numbered? Surely with Jacobs and Hampson doing pretty well last weekend in the ruck, he would have to be 5th in queue now in the rucking pecking order. And as a forward, perhaps in the not too distant future we would be better suited with an agile Kreuzer roaming as a mobile CHF? Definitely we cannot have Warnock, Hampson, Jacobs, Kreuzer, Cloke, and Fevola all in the one side? Indeed probably two would need to make way.

I believe we are starting to develop some really good balance to this side. Gibbs has developed as a Centreman, capable of winning hard-ball in the guts, and Hadley (if he can stay fit) should be good reserve in this regard, coming off the bench. Up forward we have Yarran and Garlett providing depth in the Betts role. Down back we have Johnson and Stevens providing the run and silk disposal. And we also have a few capable talls down there now (Waite, Jamison, Thornton, Bower), although granted we could probably do with a gorilla (is Setanta up to it??). As already mentioned in the ruck we have Warnock, Hampson, Jacobs and possibly Kreuzer too. We even have a few options for the hard leading, defensively minded, blue collar mid-sized HFF position (Wiggins, Russell).

But next to finding a true gorilla down back, I think the need to find a good foil to Fevola, without compromising on leg speed inside F50, is the big gaping hole on our list. And we know the injury prone Hartlett aint no Asafa Powell. Is Cloke too slow? Is Kreuzer the better option longer term? Are Cloke’s days numbered? Can we afford to carry two big lads in the one forwardline, in today’s modern caper? Don’t get me wriong, I think he goes alright. I too saw that deft tap on to a roving Betts two weekend’s ago. There’s arguably still a place for the crash n bash CHF. Or is there? I don’t want to ruin Kruezer in that sort of role, but maybe he could be more of a hard running roaming CHF, like Reiwoldt.

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VB the radio isn't a good guide to what is going on the ground.

Fev chases when Fev is switched on and Fev's added muscle doesn't appear to have slowed him down so far. He speed over 25-40 metres is as good as any forward going around.

Cloke is slow but we are not carrying two slowpo's in the F50.

The issue is mor about how our little forwards will be able to captalise on Fev and Cloke bringing the ball to ground and crumbing goals off the pack.

Cloke's days as ruck are numbered but that isn't a surprise for him as he is being groomed to have a greater role up forward.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

I'd say the better question is can we have both Fisher and Cloke in our forward line.

Intelligent responses, good stuff.

Fisher. Forgot about him totally. Not the biggest fan personally. Not overly quick, average skills, doesn't impose himself physically. OK but not great.

Same as Cloke in my view, although every time I see the Blues Lions replay from R21 2008, I think there might be hope for the biog lug. But then I see him too slow to get a kick or handball off, and I have real worries.

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No.




Looks like Bullants for Fevola.

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I think that speed and defensive pressure in the forward line are as big an issue as scoring for the MC. This might explain the investment in small forwards.

Adopting the model used by a few clubs, I think that Ratts wants AT LEAST 2 small, quick forwards. Betts is one, Yarran is probably targeted as the other - although he is more of a medium forward with small forward capabilities. Garlett has shown enough to suggest that he might rotate through there as well.

The addition of three small forwards, and with the rotation of Walker, Russell, Wiggins and Houlihan, makes Carlton less predictable and more capable defensively in the forward line.

Garlett (in particular) was very impressive defensively on the weekend. I have reservations about his body size and disposal, but he is very quick and has the special ability to know where to go to get (rove) the footy. As with Betts, this can't be taught. You either have it or you don't.

As for Cloke. I have always had reservations and was not impressed when we drafted him. In fairness, he has busted his gut and got a lot out of his talent. It appears that he will be used as a forward more than a ruck this year, and that might be a problem for him. I think that we would be a better side if Hartlett could stand up physically and replace him as a forward and I suspect that ratts does as well (he is a fan).

Cloke has kicked a couple in each of the preseason games, without really having an impact. This is a good sign. If he can do this regularly, and then have the odd "day out" with 4 goals or so, he might be good for 40 this year. I doubt it, but that would appear to be the plan.

Fish kicked well two years ago and regressed last year. I hope that he was carrying something then, as being wasteful with the football (especially in front of goal) is something we can't afford.

Not sure about Kruezer... someone a while ago saw a future for him as a "Riewoldt type" running forward with similar aerobic capabilities, but Ratts has indicated that his future is as a Ruckman who might drift forward occasionally. I prefer the latter.

kick fish to the curb

I quite like the way we have played the 3 ruckman/forwards in the NAB Cup, 1 in the middle, 1 deep in the forward line and 1 on the bench. It means we provide a tall target up forward, allow the centre ruckman to sit a kick behind play and have one spare for rotations. Whoever is in the forward line can take ruck contest down there too.

This year i can see it being Kruz, Cloke and one other, Warnock when fit hopefully. From what i've seen so far I think Jacobs adds more in the centre than Hammer(at his point in Hammers development). In time it will probably evolve to Warnock, Hammer and Kruz

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I agree.....the quick sides can expose us with them both in the side. At the moment I prefer Cloke over Fish due to his superior kicking.
Hopefully Fisher can return to his 2007 form this year and get back to averaging 2 goals per game.

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Name one successful forward line that has two genuine marking options that provide defensive pressure beyond a quasi-novelty status.

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No room for Fisher. Not a fan of Cloke. Love to see what Harts has to offer in a injury free year

We didn't " carry " either of them on Sunday . Both played well , kicked goals , played in front and worked together .
However , Cloke will still have to do a lot of ruck work through the season .
Successful teams always have at least 2 big , strong forwards . ( otherwise the Bulldogs would have snagged a flag by now ) .
With the crumbers we look like having this year I reckon Cloke / Kreuser are a must .

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Yes but only pinch-hitting. Dont want to see Cloke down there all the time, Fev does best in space with smalls at his feet.

Not sure Fish will make it in there this year ... Houla's back on a flank, Robbo looks like he might take another, JUdd might be rested down there a bit, then there's Betts, Yarran and Garlett (give the kid a go!) ... tough for him.

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The headings kind of funny.. can we carry Fev and Cloke in the forwardline.. It's the other way around, Fev carries the forward line. For the past 5 or so years he's pretty much been the forward line.

But yeah I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think its a black and white yes or no. Every club has depth beyond it's first 22 remember. Cloke could be a player that plays certain games, is left out of others, and you also have to factor in injuries, like if Fev went down with a LTI, Cloke would be a decent replacement. He's still young and can still improve. But I see Kroooooz as a long term KPP, with Hammer and Warnock the main ruckman. If this is the case, Cloke would struggle to get a regular game.

I would love to see the club rest Fev this week and Give Cloke a game at full forward with either Harts/Edwards up forward as well. Just see how we go without Fev. One or two of these guys could thrive being the number one forward

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Thought Cloke was okay and added an option up forward. VB makes a good point though, having Cloke and Fev up there would the most you could have. Although thought Fev was good defensively last night.

If you have Fev and Cloke/Kruezer along with Betts, Yarran, Walker, Gartlett, Russell, Wiggins I reckon we will be okay defensively. There is no way we could have Fisher as well. It was obvious the improvement in the sides balance when he went off. The other help was Waite moving up to the wing and playing loose. Meaning we only had Thornton, Jamo and Bower as our talls and guys like Stevens, Anderson, Armfield, Joseph could run the ball out. Thornton certainly enjoyed the space.

We are a much better team when we get our balance right.

Whoa up there big fella. Cloke is fine busting packs and taking a few marks. Two or three goals a game. There will be enough speed with Betts, Yarran Hoops and Garlett. Fev isn't slow either. Cloke gives us a physical presence - loves contact.

Love the fact there is discussion of who is best in so many positions..........

if anyone can carry one of those guys let alone both of them , i'd like to meet him

then make him fullback

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Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Fish should get game time if thats what he needs in the Bullants,i'm tired of people making excuses for this guy in regards to his injuries.Get up to scratch in the 2's then come back to see us

I think it's fair to say that Cloke has been a success in his new role up forward. I think he's more than capable of bagging 40+ goals this year and add to this the aerial contest he will provide across CHF, something our forwardline has been lacking for quite a while, he may become a very valuable player for the CFC.

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Yes.

Cloke is actually a pretty good kick for goal from what iv seen and can take a mark. he's got a bit of a crash and bash hardness about him to. Physical presence.

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Carlton Premiers '10