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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:55 pm 
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John James

Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:59 pm
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GreatEx wrote:


stopped wasting my breathe on the climate denial industry years ago mate. i’ve seen those threads and the Trumpeter conspiracy lunacy.

i’m here for foorball and the club i love more try an any other sporting club.

as i discovered as a 9 year old taking myself to princes park for the U19, Reserves and VFL games each week of home and away with my mate, there’s a broad spectrum of folks that support this club from silver-tails to garbolgists to nuclear scientists to long term unemployed to everyone in between.

the stereotypes about each club as illustrated for example by the “supporter reporter” in the unforgettable “Plugger” comics of the late 90s are just that, stereotypes and most AFL clubs have most kinds of folks in the support base. some of them even know something about football at times, irrespective of their political affiliations or delusional conspiracy theories.

heck i’ve even heard that most clubs tolerate women and LBGTI+ folks in the club rooms these days. amazing how things change isn’t it?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:39 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Too much overthinking . Just grab the money .

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:45 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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diesel95 wrote:
heck i’ve even heard that most clubs tolerate women and LBGTI+ folks in the club rooms these days. amazing how things change isn’t it?


And there it is…

Chicks with dicks in the change rooms again.

Seems like every thread gets there eventually.

Duke will be by soon. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:02 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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diesel95 wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Well if they burn or tear up their memberships, I'll get some for my wife (Swans), sister, cat and 2 chickens to help cover the loss.
The irony is the poster fails to realise that most renewable energy is already owned by these fossil fuel companies anyway, they've been investing for years.
Pretty stupid stance to take IMO.
Especially when you can google AMPOL in 2 sec and find articles like this:
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/ampol-targets-batteries-hydrogen-in-green-push-20210519-p57tdu


i’ve spent over a decade in the climate movement and model energy grids. you are so wrong on all counts. ignorance is bliss as they say.

please cite your sources and evidence for the “most RE is owned by FF companies” and i’ll wipe the floor with you.

the big three gentailers in Australia have gone out of their way to oppose RE. so have their toadies in the regulatory system (AEMC, AER, ESB) and the legislature (Libs, Nats who rep FF not farmers , Labor at times and 100% wrt FF exports).


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Top 10 largest renewable companies in the world (outside of China I presume who deliver 30% of world's production and also 30% of GH emissions).
https://www.investopedia.com/investing/top-alternative-energy-companies/
1. General Electric.
They've been involved with FF production forever and Vanguard are the major shareholder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Oil_and_Gas
2. Iberdrola SA
Largest shareholder is QATAR Holdings LLC (BlackRock also are a major shareholder).
https://www.iberdrola.com/shareholders-investors/share/share-capital/shares

The list goes on.

6 of the Major oil companies that have invested in RE.
https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/oil-companies-renewable-energy/
Quote:
BP was the first oil major to commit significant capital to renewable projects, such as wind and solar, from 1980 onwards.


BlackRock are the major shareholder in Shell, the major shareholder in BP along with Vanguard, etc...................

The largest renewable energy provider in Australia is AGL Energy and the largest shareholder is Vanguard Group (3%) and Vanguard investments (1.9%), who also have a 9% shareholding in BlackRock and is their largest shareholder also.

Vanguard are also the major shareholder of Chevron, Exxon Mobile (BlackRock are a major too) as well as many others.
They are also the second largest shareholder of Ampol (the largest is Australian Super).

Edit: Plus Enron Wind Corp used to own the patents for wind turbines which GE Wind Energy then acquired.


Last edited by Sidefx on Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:46 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
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GWS wrote:
diesel95 wrote:
heck i’ve even heard that most clubs tolerate women and LBGTI+ folks in the club rooms these days. amazing how things change isn’t it?


And there it is…

Chicks with dicks in the change rooms again.

Seems like every thread gets there eventually.

Duke will be by soon. :lol:

There are no chicks with dicks. Only blokes with tits.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:49 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
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diesel95 wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
diesel95 wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Pretty stupid stance to take IMO.
Especially when you can google AMPOL in 2 sec and find articles like this:
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/ampol-targets-batteries-hydrogen-in-green-push-20210519-p57tdu


i have a friend whose a blues man and has ben in hydrogen research and startups since the late 80s. i don’t need to google Ampol and battery charging or Ampol and H₂ to know what they are up to and why they are doing it.

the EV charging stuff is <0.001% of their business. sorry but that’s the reality and it will remain the reality for a decade that it’s less than 1% of their gross income. most EV charging will be done at home or place of business or place of stopping (malls etc) in that order. and there’s almost no bucks in it cf fossil fuel distribution and retail for that reason and some other laws of physics reasons.

the Ampol EV strategy is fine, i wouldn’t even say welcome bc this industry, oil and gas has collectively spent over a billion dollars on misinformation and propoganda campaigns. it’s deliberately funded the climate denial industry for 30+ years. so no points from me doing some EV charging.

it’s nothing more greenwashing of their brand (just got a make over to BTW) how ever earnest and sincere their EV charging team may be. that’s just a fact.

as for H₂, it’s not going to have any role in passenger vehicle transportation industry. the economics are screwed, again by laws of physics limitations on the H₂ fuel cycle. it will have important niche roles in industry, as a reductant in iron ore → iron metal processing (see the recent launch of Superpower Institute and NPC speech by Ross Garnaut and Rod Sims for a gentle, nontechnical introduction). but even those roles may be displaced in time with other more direct ways to produce heat and reduce elements from their oxidation compounds found in ore bodies (Direct reduction in a process like electrolysis in the case of iron, aluminium and silicon etc)

but believe me, the Blues are lending our good name to greenwash a player in an industry that no kids wanna work in when they grow up. that no graduate engineers and other graduates want to work in any more. even the obscene salaries and money to be made is not convincing the kids, they voting with their feet in growing numbers and this is what this is all about. Greenwash (and teenwash) from start to finish. i know because this is my special subject. and i know a lot of people who could run a scathing campaign on it. a campaign that would be easily distracting enough to slam the window shut for a few years.

that’s the last thing i want to see. i want to see leadership on this issue from they club leaders.

it’s worse than running anti-gambling ads by Vossy* and big H* and then taking Sportsbet or an online casino as a sponsor to my mind. there will come a day when AFL matches will be cancelled and/or rescheduled due to extreme heat or cyclonic winds and hail. at the senior AFL level not just remote regional club level. and that’s the least concerning aspect of climate emergency i can think of.

yet we happily take money from an industry that spent large on the climate denial industry for decades. as in Billions just through Homeland Institute and the Koch brothers alone. not to mention the way they undermined democracy at every point they could from citizens united SC appeal to congressmen and women and APH representatives being their paid representatives in all political parties except the Greens. it’s disgusting.

i appreciate many on this forum won’t understand this point of view given you working lives and conservative political allégeances which require tribal allégeance to climate denial or at least allégeance to “incremental progress is enough” and “green growth” of attitudes. well all i can say is watch this space bc the major of people have moved on from that hogwash. .


* which i love btw and was both surprised and impressed with, even though AFL revenue streams from from gambling industry advertising (and there’s so much of it!) pays there salaries)


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What was your opinion of having Hyundai as a major sponsor?


not a fan but it doesn’t cross the unethical line as far as i’m concerned. would love it if they weren’t because they’ve been one of the “slow adopters” of transition to BEV that we’ve know for a decade is unavoidable.

Japanese and Korean car makers/marquees have studiously favoured the impossible hydrogen car as a way of maintaining IcE cars while pretending to have a transition strategy. i really worry for the 100 million workers in and associated with the Japanese car industry (i think it’s 100 million. i looked it up a year ago to post on a blog post by economist Bill Mitchell about the japanese govt by up of all ten year bonds — the crafting famous window maker trade).

for those who think H₂ EVs are a thing of the future…. think again. here’s a humorous take from someone who can tell you all the reasons it makes for terrible economics and as a commercial proposition.

https://cleantechnica-com.cdn.ampprojec ... ation/amp/


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Thanks, I’ll have a read of that.

I’m also not totally convinced in the evil of Ampol, corporates change and large corporations are made up of many diverse areas and employees. I don’t subscribe to the theory of branding this company “bad”, and that company “good”, it’s too simplistic.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:50 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8308
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Crusader wrote:
GWS wrote:
diesel95 wrote:
heck i’ve even heard that most clubs tolerate women and LBGTI+ folks in the club rooms these days. amazing how things change isn’t it?


And there it is…

Chicks with dicks in the change rooms again.

Seems like every thread gets there eventually.

Duke will be by soon. :lol:

There are no chicks with dicks. Only blokes with tits.


Lots of blokes with tits posting in this forum I’d say….we all get there eventually.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:01 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Lots of tits with posts, too.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:43 pm 
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Robert Walls

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As long as there are no blokes with tits posting dick pics

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:52 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Location: Conservative Brisbane :O(
Didnt the cfmeu sponsor the Canberra raiders? Jeebus!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:59 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
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GWS wrote:
diesel95 wrote:
heck i’ve even heard that most clubs tolerate women and LBGTI+ folks in the club rooms these days. amazing how things change isn’t it?


And there it is…

Chicks with dicks in the change rooms again.

Seems like every thread gets there eventually.

Duke will be by soon. :lol:
Laughed so hard I spat my ice cream all over my screen.

Totally worth it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:09 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Location: riding shotgun on Agros Karma Train
AMPOL on the jumper looked magnificent yesterday!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:09 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Location: riding shotgun on Agros Karma Train
although we were only running on fumes

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:38 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Ouch kerna….

you’ve entered Cee Kay material right
there…!

i love the Ampol badge…especially as they’ve dropped
the red for us…now to do something about
those Kioti colours…!


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:48 am 
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Bruce Doull
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It's a slippery slop kk :grin:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:39 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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CK95 wrote:
It's a slippery slop


That's what she said

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:41 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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oops :grin:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:29 pm 
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John James

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GE are not a pure fossil fuel company and never have been. the hint is in the initials General and Electric. once upon a time all generation equipment ran on fossil fuels. GE diversified out of FF generation into other décorés decades ago. more recently they got into RE.

they aren’t by any means a dominant player in wind generation. they arrived quite late and have caught up well, and produce some of the (almost) largest land based turbine platforms in the world but their USA base accounts for a lot of that, more existing relationships in USA than EU and Australia. i’ve examined specs on dozens of australian wind farms and i can’t even remember one with HE turbines. i’m shred there’s one or two but Vestas wipes the floor with GE.

if you think Mobile == GE then you need to read my explanation of why a dirty little petrol outlet needs to sponsor a football club like carlton who, by most accounts are on the cusp of something big. it’s because you people just don’t want to work for FF corporations any more. they’re wise enough to know it’s a blot on their resume and concerned enough about CC to think shamefully of the billions of dollars the oil and gas majors spent on CC denial, even when they had some of the strongest research to support the premise of AGW and all the knock effects in the various climate systems (not to mention ecosystems) due to a relatively small shift in the global mean atmospheric temperate (which correlates to quite large shifts in local averages in the poles and increase in maximums and extreme weather, including cold weather and winter storms).

that’s it Mobile are attempting to greenwash the oil out of their white underwear. never gonna happen but why have carlton smeared in the process for the sake of a few bucks we don’t even need. the club has never had better finances.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:54 pm 
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John James

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investitopia is a shit source. on anything relating to economics (i’ve debunked a tonne of their stuff before). is it written by volunteers and work experience kids, i suspect so and i can tell you their neoclassical theories are based on pathetically poor assumptions that the weight of evidence shows us are the opposite of how real world economics operates.

so here’s the big mistake you made looking for a readymade gotcha.

you didn’t even read the content.

these companies are not the biggest renewable energy technology predicting companies in the world. they are even the biggest renewable energy technology deployment or owner-generator companies in the world.

they the biggest multinational conglomerates who happen to have a renewables play (and who wouldn’t when RE produces the lowest LCOE power and lower energy costs reduces your cost of business?!)

look at their GE summary for example (and in this case GE are a leader, one of several l, the rest in EU plus Goldwind more recently in turbine design:

1. General Electric Co. (GE)
Revenue (TTM): $75.07 billion
Net Income (TTM): -$5.84 billion
Market Cap: $89.02 billion
1-Year Trailing Total Return: -11.09%
Exchange: New York Stock Exchange

can you show me where the disaggregating of the Equity or revenue has been made to identify how much of it is RE, how much is FF and how much is completely nothing to do with either, like aerospace, health, finance etc?

do that and i’ll have a conversation with you.

i’m completely away of the attempts by FF to get into RE at various times in the last two decades. like BPs embarrassing “Beyond Petroleum” stunt when they bought up many Australian PV businesses and then left the industry a few years later, and left it much the worse off for their efforts according to industry participants and veterans.

i’m also aware of the FFuel suppliers like the Koch brothers (coal especially) who spent billions on CC denial propaganda and buying off American science museums, universities, Congresspersons and other institutions to try and prevent a sensible transition away from Ff to RE when we still had time to do so without the catastrophic ecosystem consequences and disaster impacts on civilisation that are increasingly now unavoidable for the rest of h this century. through their Homeland Institute they funnelled dark money and FF money into the denial industry. so much and so dark a stain on democracy are these brothers so there’s several investigative books written about their anti-democratic, anti-humanist obsession with personal wealth and omnipotent power.

Most of the PV is produced in China today using tech from UNSW and ANU which we didn’t commercialise in part because of the hold the resources sector has over APH.

there’s some irony that John Howard was bemoaning that Aussies don’t commercialise out great ingenuity enough and at the same time in history he refused point blank to prime the pump for our PV industry.

one of the PhDs in the UNSW research tried to get it going here but couldn’t so he went home to China eventually and investors and CCP investment arms threw money at him from all directions. he’s known now as the Solar King and i think is worth a billion purely out of PV commercialisation (UNSW gets a tiny bit of royalty/patent fee but it’s minute compared to the scale of the industry that a few scientists like Martin Green managed to spawn).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:05 pm 
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John James

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‘6. of the major oil and gas companies are vested in solar. ‘

that’s about as meaningful as pointing out that some indian coal mines run PV on the building roofs to provide low cost, onsite power. of course they do. this doesn’t negate the fact that they are doing everything they can to keep pulling as much FF out of the horizons as they can and fast s as they can. they know they’re on borrowed time. they’ll both use RR to lower their overheads and invest in dodgy politicians who will continue to stymie the transition to RE.

South Australia was 70% RE last year. they could have been further along if they’d extended their transmission network NW as Jay Weatherill now wishes he had. Austrlaia could have easily got to 70% on the entire NEM and SWIS by now. but at 40% RE baseload coal starts having its lunch eaten many days of the year. Alinta closed down Northern and Playford almost overnight when SA got to ~40% because their units aren’t designed to ramp twice daily to access the remaining bit of profitable demand once midday peaking cheaper solar and night time consistent and cheaper wind take those parts of the market. even if they were designed to ramp, it costs them in burnt fuel and added maintenance. it’s a no go and Alinta knew this implicitly.

you’ll see coal power forced out of every state wholesale power market at 40-50% RE or used seasonally for winter generation until enough wind and firming storage are in the system to make it unprofitable to run coal even in winter. gas will remain bc even though it’s much more expensive today, aero-derivative open cycle units can ramp pretty hard these days. so they’ll just gobble the max price events. batteries will beat them to the low hanging fruit at lower LCOE cost when filling up on low cost midday solar and overnight wind.


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