There's a lot of separate discussions going on here and in Recruitment about our forward line options so I thought it'd be worthwhile setting up something more central.

My view is that with an increased emphasis on field skills and another pre-season for Ratten and co to come up with some other strategies, we should expect an improvement from our forward line before we get to the actual personnel.

But therein lies the rub - we can say we have 1 true AFL star forward in Fev, 1 AFL level pocket maybe occasional mid in Betts, and then a range of partly tried or future options to round out what we hope is a dangerous and better forward line in 2009:

* Fisher - wonderful 2007 with 39 goals, brought back to the field in 2008 with only 25 goals. Played more upfield but was definitely caught on the rebound in 2008.
* Wiggins - 2008 was his best year for mine as a true lead-up forward. In hisinterviews he talks about being a burst player so maybe he'll be a good bench / swap player in 2009.
* Cloke - can take a mark and is a lovely kick and looks fantastic. Is that enough?
* Edwards - 5 goals in 5 games (limited game time in most) in his 3rd year on the list. Great hands but one trick and question over work ethic.
* Hartlett - 8 games in 4 years on the list and question marks over injury. I've been a fan after watching some true CHF efforts at the Bullants (hard leading, organising the forward line) but slow and a poor turning circle.
* Houlihan
* Resting midfielders on occasion eg. Stevens. Unfortunately Simmo tends to be needed more in defence these days but I'd like to think he could play wing / HFF.
* Resting ruck if not Cloke

And the new boys:
* Yarran will be given lots of opportunities

So there are lots of players that could play there but I think Ratten will try to settle on a group of 6 or 7 and the others will just have to work hard in the Bullants to get noticed.

With Fev, Betts and Yarran being walk-up starts, we'll need at least two more tall marking targets. I think they'll start with Cloke and Fisher and keep Edwards and hartlett in the 2's until they show some real form (much like second half of 2008). Wiggins as the burst player.

Thoughts?

Kreuzer is another who shouldn't be forgotten as a forward option. Apparently has the running ability to play a lead up role and with his accuracy could be a viable option at CHF.

Port Adelaide's distribution of goals in their premiership year of 2004 gives me hope that we can still be successful without another dominant key forward.

Player G
Warren Tredrea 81
Stuart Dew 31
Brendon Lade 31
Toby Thurstans 24
Gavin Wanganeen 24
Byron Pickett 20
Josh Mahoney 20
Shaun Burgoyne 18
Brett Ebert 17
Domenic Cassisi 15
Dean Brogan 14
Jarrad Schofield 13
Peter Burgoyne 12
Kane Cornes 12
Josh Carr 11
Michael Wilson 9
Roger James 9
Damon White 8
Adam Kingsley 8
Steven Salopek 6
Brett Montgomery 5
Jared Poulton 4
Chad Cornes 4
Matthew Primus 4
Jacob Surjan 2
Stuart Cochrane 2
Darryl Wakelin 1
Damien Hardwick 1

As you can see Lade and Thurstans played as the second/third tall at times, while there was a large contribution from midfielders/running players. Hopefully with Judd doing a full pre season and us winning more clearances the runners are given license to go for goal more often.

In my opinon of the above.......... only Houlihan and Cloke will make an impact next year.

I lost alot of faith in Fisher, he's kicking is pathetic and he constantly leads into Fevola's path.
I love Edwards, but seems to be out of favour or doesn't prepare hard enough.
Hartlett has had his chances, so i have little faith but so much hope.
Wiggens, as much as i love him, will be a super-sub, and not one to rely on kicking 30+ goals.

For me............

- Houlihan will be good down forward in the pocket where he has very little accountability (he sucked in defence, let's be honest).

- Kreuzer will step up a bit! I think he's entirly capable of kicking 30 goals next year regarless of age and size.

- Yarran, well, if he can kick 30+ goals in a strong team in the WAFL, who knows what he's capable of in his first season of AFL??????????
(Betts will benifit from his inclusion too).

- Waite is a handy option accross half forward too. Kreuzer & Waite are two talls who are extremly good marks.............. put em both at half forward and your gonna create headaches. Teams will be FORCED to use decent defeders on them or pay the consequences........... that's gotta stop Fev from being double and tripple team!


I'd also like to see our mids take more chances at goal. I remember seeing a few times last year mids kick to a double-teamed Fevola when they could have had a shot themselvs.

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Im thinking we need to play the Fev in slightly different role next year and have him push up the ground more to bring others into the game.

The only way we can develop a potent forward structure is by not relying on Fev and have him sacrifice his role to bring others into the game. But saying that when Fevs firing he is hard to not look for and he did kick 99 goals.

As wrong as this may sound but i'd like to see how we go if Fev were to break down and how we would setup. We need plan B,C and D

I would love to see Walker and Waite roaming around and inside the 50 with either Cloke or Hartts leading out from the goal square and Eddie and Yarran cleaning up the crumbs. Throw in Warnock and Krooze as the tall timbers and that looks pretty decent with out the Fev.

I think Fisher may struggle to get into the side in the second half of the year. When we isolate the 50 for Fev when he is on fire, fisher has to push up the ground and this is where he gets exposed for his lack of pace and skill. Also ratts wants to inject some pace into the side especially up forward and you can tell he is crying out for a Ryan O'keefe type of player and is hoping this is what JR turns into. Unfortunately Fisher wont.

If Cloke is relieved of the 1st ruck duties and can therefore drop some of the weight he needed to compete againstr the bigger blokes, he could slot nicely into CHF IMO. He can take a mark, kicks well, works hard.

tick, tick, tick.

We just need to make sure we manage the forward line well so teams dont try to run off him (ie: drop him back to the goalsquare like brisbane do with Brown)

I for one think people are under estimating our forward line.

When you have a player like Fev on your team thats gonna mark it 70% of times you kick it to him, why not take that option. He makes a shit kick look good.

I believe Cam is the biggest question mark. He can mark, he can kick accurate and he can kick long...which normally equates to very good CHF. He is very slow, but if he can be kept around the 50 metre arc all year (just like we were committed to leaving waite at CHB all year). If he does kick say 30-35 goals, that is a job well done.

Fish as molsey mentioned played up the ground, but what people don't realise is how inaccurate he was because of this. He is a 40 goals a year player. Because when he plays up the ground, if he is gonna mark it inside 50, it was generally deep. Shots at goals is both technique and confidence, and i believe by the second half of the year, his confidence at kicking at goals was shot. People forget that he only had 7 less scoring shot in 08 compared to 07. He also took about 15 more marks for the year and had alot more possessions in 08, which just indicates that he played a completely different role this year.

I know people say we can't play 4 ruckmans...but I think we can, but play two of them a permanent forwards that only ruck from throw ins. Why can't Kreuze Missile and Cam stay forward. Giving us 4 tall options, in which 1 of them (not fev), will be rotated on the bench.

With so many talls, then the small forwards can do the job which we know they can do which is gather the crums. Eddie and Yarran would strive on that. Plus both of them have really good marking ability.

Then we always have the chief, tex, houla and co that would be used for balance of smalls and bigs.

We were the 6th highest scoring team in 08 (really should be 5th, because the last game we didnt want to score, we just wanted fev to).

I really think with an inclusion of basically Cloke (new position), Yarra (New all together), Fish (Return to pocket player) and Walks (from injury) our forward like can be one of the best in the league and we might go from 6th highest to 3rd or 4th highest scoring team. I don't think we have anymore "Obvious" holes in our line up...I know we have weakness's but no more gashing holes.

By the end of this year, I would like our defence to be ranked as one of the league's best (top 8 in points against) and by end of next year to have one of the best ruck combinations = premiership

_________________
cruise (Kreuze) missile:
a very accurate flying bomb.
SOURCE: http://library.thinkquest.org/3785/glossary.html

Just to round out this point, Fisher in 2007 kicked 39.15 (54 shots), and in 2008 kicked 25.22 (47 shots):

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php? ... A+B+Fisher

So 14 less goals but 7 less scoring shots.

According to this stats summary (derived from Footywire.com) , average marks were very consistent 2007 to 2008 at about 7.2 per match.

From the Blueseum

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Check out www.blueseum.org for all of your Carlton information needs.

The problem with Fisher is he gets shown out for lack of pace and not only forward but all over the ground. Teams always play a running defender on Fisher and we get punished for it. He is a liability

For when he does push up the ground he doesn't have a damaging and penetrating kick into the 50. His kicks seem to take take for ever to hit its designated target.

No doubt he will be part of our starting line up come round one 2009 but the second half of the year i think he will be pushed out unless we suffer some injuries.

A see our 6 forwards being Fev, Cloke, Betts, Yarran, Walker and Houlihan with JR, Krooze rotating through. Fev, Cloke and Krooze our three talls, Walker, Betts and Yarran to add some pace and Houlihan hate to say this has some class about him.

Defining what constitutes a forward is important.

I believe a forward is an accurate kick for goal who doesn't need many opportunities to hurt the opposition on the scoreboard.

Then there's defensive forwards: Russell seemed to have this job last year because of his strength and pace. He had something like 11 shots at goal and scored 1 or 2. That's a negative imo.

The time where Houla played defensive forward against McLeod and scored 3 goals as well as closing down McLeod is a great defensive forward.

Against the running defences like Hawks and Cats we need to have a defensive mindset as well as the physical attributes to apply pressure: pace, strength courage and teamwork.

Like Habis stated, I too think we have the list to make a potent forwardline.

Like Molsey said, Ratts will develop a better plan for the forwardline.

Like Ryan suggested, we have 2 backmen, Waite and Walker who are built to devastate opposition defences. Now as for Ryans comments re Houla in defense, Kreuzer being an extremely good overhead mark, writing off Hartlett, Fisher's potential...I totally disagree (and I don't disagre that much with Ryan Kouta 2000).

I thought Fisher was too slow to defend against a Hawks defense, and his kicking let him down, but he did kick 25 behinds as a linkman further up the ground. He's a good forward because of his marking and should be played deep. He will not get a spot if Fev, Kreuzer/Cloke, Waite and Walker are playing forward with the likes of Betts, Houla and Yarran being the first small medium candidtates to be considered.

How many talls in the forwardline do we play? Depends on whether we want to stretch the opposition (Doggies, Saints), dry or wet ground, or whether we want a mobile forwadline with only 2 talls.

The real issue regarding our forwardline fortunes depend on what plans A, B, C and D the coaching staff can devise and how well they instill this into the players.

I believe we have the players and ample of them to play forward:

Talls: Fev. Kreuzer, Waite, Fisher, Walker with Hartlett, Edwards to prove themselves worthy in the Bullants...Setanta if need be.
Mids: Houla, Hadley, Gibbs and midfielders
Smalls: Betts, Yarran, Scotland and midfielders (including Army & Browne).

Midfielders as Effes points out have an important role if we are going to kick winning scores, Murphs is the only one who needs straightening up, and I know he's working on it....fingers crossed. Point is all our other mids are good shots at goal. We need them to kick goals.

I believe with the addition of Warnock and Hammer fixing his position in the ruck will multiply our clearance output in 2009 by say another 30%. The defense will have once again less pressure, as well as the kids like Bower and Jamison having breakout years....and because of this we will not have to be so reliant on Fev moving forward.

Forwards kick goals.

Proven goalkickers are Fev, Waite, Betts, Houla, Kreuzer, Scotland, Hadley and Gibbs.....and I bet Yarran will too...there's plenty to pick from.

Over to you Ratts.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

What i'm saying with the likes of Fisher and Hartlett............

They have potential....... indeed. Fisher is one of the best marks in the business but a shit kick and Hartlett can never get his body right.

There are reasons behind this of course. But......... with the list we have coming through, they are gonna run out of excuses.

Plain and Simple.

Kreuzer kicks 13.1 playing in the ruck for god sake. Imagine how good he is going to be next year and beyond when he has had
-A Pre season under his belt
-Added weight
-greater knowledge of professional football

Fisher is and maybe HAS run out of excuse. A team that is striving for Finals Football CANNOT TOLERATE poor kicking.
They just can't.

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Forwardline dependencies:

Possession by our midfield
Quick movement forward (to beat flood and create time)
Good delivery from midfield
Support from the midfield forward both offensively and defensively.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Not only will Fisher be found out i think players like Carrots, Wiggo and Banno may find there spots in the team less likely as each game passes.

The only reason why they will get a game is because they have seasoned bodies and the likes of Browne, Armfield, Robinson, Yarran are deveolping and will eventually push these guys out of the side.

Don't forget Chris Johnson. If this guy has a accurate kick on him i could see him playing a role like Birchal from the Hawks

Kreuzer kicked his goals playing FF or FP most of the time. His marks were from leads, not pack marks.

Yes he's gonna get better.....he's going to star in 2009.

Fisher is running a fine line and there's pressure on his spot no doubt. He still was our second best scorer in 2008...I don't have him in my best 22.

I think Hartlett has what it takes: leads well, has got good hands, kicks like a mule and is bloody tall enough. But it's up to him to get his body stronger in the preseason, and that will come from harder efforts at training. If not, he aint going to earn a spot ahead of Cloke, let alone Kreuzer, Fevola, Waite and Walker, if the latter 2 are considered for the forwardline....even Hadley can play tall.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

IIRC, in a Ratts interview recently he mentioned Kreuzer first when discussing CHF options.

Lock it in, he'll be spending lots of time forward in 2009.

So you want to rotate a ruckman (Hampson or Warnock) and a key forward (Kreuzer, Cloke, Hartlett) from the bench?

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Walker will play the lead up Ryan OKeefe role
Fev at FF
Kreuzer/Hartlett/Cloke at CHF
Betts in one pocketYarran on a flank
Houla there..

.. and Fish/ Edwards /Robertson as more floating forwards...

Options there!!!... development and game plan needed...

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Oh and i forgot Waite....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The problem with Hartts is that Cloke and Krooze are ahead of him in the pecking order. Also with the big Fev as a vocal point we will struggle to develop other options unless Fev plays a different role.

Im a fan of Hartts but i really don't see him fitting in or having a role within the side. How can the club continue to invest time in him when he continually breaks down.

Honestly im starting to think that our push to make the finals in 08 may have interfered with us trying different options with how we setup forward. Our backs, our midfield look like there got it right but a big cloud hangs over our head in terms of kicking big enough scores.

Yeah

I think if we leave the Cloke and Kreuzer as ruckmans mentality and think of them as forwards, then we can have Hamo and Warnock rotating in the rucks, and Cloke/Kreuzer/(another tall, whether it is fish or hartlett) one being on the bench and rotating like that.

_________________
cruise (Kreuze) missile:
a very accurate flying bomb.
SOURCE: http://library.thinkquest.org/3785/glossary.html

I think you'll see Fev and Cloke switching roles with Fev moving up the ground at times and Cloke leading from the goal square

fev is has a great kick and probably one the better in our side