TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Rat-ing the ruckmen

1. Cloke has been the most effective but is too short and gets overpowered when he gets too tired to jump. Should be a backup with duties in the forward line.

2. Kreuzer has been protected to some extent in relation to ground time but hasn't convinced me that he will become a dominating tap ruckman. Worries me by looking at his opponent rather than the ball at centre bounces. Looks more likely to develop into an Adam Goodes type.

3 .Hampson has been the only one to provide any real contest at centre bounces because he is the only one with the size and leap to do so. Has all the physical attributes but is very much a work in progress.

4. Jacobs is still on the rookie list but is possibly the most complete ruckman of all of them although he is better at around the ground ruckwork than at centre bounces. Has dramatically improved his mobility, works hard around the ground and has become a good link player at VFL level.

5. Ackland was signed on the basis of a couple of dominating games against Carlton's sub-standard ruck division but has never looked like it against any decent rucks. Has looked much more like a FF than a ruckman but has been miscast because he is tall.

6. Aisake is clearly out of favour and I would be surprised if he returns next year but I think he too has been miscast because of his size. He improved in every season under Mitchell but has clearly gone backwards this year. Despite improvements he has never looked like becoming a dominant ruckman. Forget the fact that he is over 200 cm and consider his speed and agility and he could have become a major mismatch in many other positions.

In summary we have 4 incomplete ruckmen, 3 of whom should continue to improve (Cloke won't be getting any taller) plus 2 who will probably never become ruckmen. The only times we got badly beaten this season was when we were dominated in centre clearances.

If we decide not to import an experienced ruckman we need to make sure the 3 youngsters get all the coaching they need to take the next steps.

Author:	RiverRodent [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Rat-ing the ruckmen
1. Cloke has been the most effective but is too short and gets overpowered when he gets too tired to jump. Should be a backup with duties in the forward line. 2. Kreuzer has been protected to some extent in relation to ground time but hasn't convinced me that he will become a dominating tap ruckman. Worries me by looking at his opponent rather than the ball at centre bounces. Looks more likely to develop into an Adam Goodes type. 3 .Hampson has been the only one to provide any real contest at centre bounces because he is the only one with the size and leap to do so. Has all the physical attributes but is very much a work in progress. 4. Jacobs is still on the rookie list but is possibly the most complete ruckman of all of them although he is better at around the ground ruckwork than at centre bounces. Has dramatically improved his mobility, works hard around the ground and has become a good link player at VFL level. 5. Ackland was signed on the basis of a couple of dominating games against Carlton's sub-standard ruck division but has never looked like it against any decent rucks. Has looked much more like a FF than a ruckman but has been miscast because he is tall. 6. Aisake is clearly out of favour and I would be surprised if he returns next year but I think he too has been miscast because of his size. He improved in every season under Mitchell but has clearly gone backwards this year. Despite improvements he has never looked like becoming a dominant ruckman. Forget the fact that he is over 200 cm and consider his speed and agility and he could have become a major mismatch in many other positions. In summary we have 4 incomplete ruckmen, 3 of whom should continue to improve (Cloke won't be getting any taller) plus 2 who will probably never become ruckmen. The only times we got badly beaten this season was when we were dominated in centre clearances. If we decide not to import an experienced ruckman we need to make sure the 3 youngsters get all the coaching they need to take the next steps.

Author:	Donstuie [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:37 pm ]
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It just highlights that we need help in this area, which is where the Lade/Brogan/White/Warnock talk has come from. At this point in time, Kreuzer and Hampson are works in progress, and Cloke would be more effective elsewhere but handy to help out, and right now won't even break even with most ruck divisions. Having a mature body in the middle that can at least provide a 50/50 contest with the better tappers in the league would be of great benefit to the team both through improved results, but also allowing us to put the proper time and conditioning into the younger guys without the urge to force them to front them to the monsters through necessity. I would also look at our coaching. Was Stephen McKee even a full time ruckman, and even so wasn't he on the outer as soon as Josh Fraser turned up, or is it my imagination?

Author:	Fabulous [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:37 pm ]
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RR do you think Jacobs will get on the senior list for the 2009 season?

Author:	aboynamedsue [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rat-ing the ruckmen
RiverRodent wrote: 1. Cloke has been the most effective but is too short and gets overpowered when he gets too tired to jump. Should be a backup with duties in the forward line. 2. Kreuzer has been protected to some extent in relation to ground time but hasn't convinced me that he will become a dominating tap ruckman. Worries me by looking at his opponent rather than the ball at centre bounces. Looks more likely to develop into an Adam Goodes type. 3 .Hampson has been the only one to provide any real contest at centre bounces because he is the only one with the size and leap to do so. Has all the physical attributes but is very much a work in progress. 4. Jacobs is still on the rookie list but is possibly the most complete ruckman of all of them although he is better at around the ground ruckwork than at centre bounces. Has dramatically improved his mobility, works hard around the ground and has become a good link player at VFL level. 5. Ackland was signed on the basis of a couple of dominating games against Carlton's sub-standard ruck division but has never looked like it against any decent rucks. Has looked much more like a FF than a ruckman but has been miscast because he is tall. 6. Aisake is clearly out of favour and I would be surprised if he returns next year but I think he too has been miscast because of his size. He improved in every season under Mitchell but has clearly gone backwards this year. Despite improvements he has never looked like becoming a dominant ruckman. Forget the fact that he is over 200 cm and consider his speed and agility and he could have become a major mismatch in many other positions. In summary we have 4 incomplete ruckmen, 3 of whom should continue to improve (Cloke won't be getting any taller) plus 2 who will probably never become ruckmen. The only times we got badly beaten this season was when we were dominated in centre clearances. If we decide not to import an experienced ruckman we need to make sure the 3 youngsters get all the coaching they need to take the next steps. Spot on again RR, IMO. I was shot down by a few on TC before the season started when I said that we shouldn't waste any more time trying to make Aisake into a ruckman. He's not completely hopeless in the ruck at VFL level, but I'm staggered he was not given a chance in other areas of the ground for the Bullants (CHB, HF or Wing). Now it looks like it's all over for him. I reckon Jacobs has been the best pure ruckman on our books all year, but has not been given a chance at AFL level. I would be very surprised if he's not promoted to Carlton's senior list. Needs to keep working on his mobility, but that's an area where he's already made vast improvements in the last 12 months. I could see him being a Robert Campbell-type, while Hampson should develop into a Jeff White-type. I agree with RR that Kreuzer's appeal lies elsewhere than as a permanent ruckman. Anyway, all 3 will take time to develop, so it will be interesting to see if the MC continues to use Cloke (and maybe Carlos?) as a stop-gap in the meantime, or if we go after White or Brogan. The Dylan McLaren/Cain Ackland experience makes me think we would be better just putting ground time into Jacobs/Hammer/Kreuzer (with support from Cloke/Carlos)... Of course, this will require some very astute development coaching. I don't know enough about McKee and the inner-working of the MC to comment on our current set-up in that regard (although the improvement of Jacobs, and reasonable progress of Hammer, suggests that we may be on the right track). I don't think we should sell the farm for Warnock either, although he would be a good pick up if we could get him for less than our 1# pick and a big chunk of our salary cap...

Author:	Rexy [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:34 pm ]
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I thinks it's reasonable enough to expect that with the right tuition and fitness program over this preseason our young rucks in Hampson, Kreuzer and Jacobs should be at least competitive with their senior ruck opponents next year which will be an improvement on this and past seasons gone and therefore give our elite midfield a better chance at getting clearances. Therefore, I think Jacobs could be promoted to the primary list and another young ruckman drafted in either the National or Rookie drafts. Hampson and Jacobs as our 1st and 2nd tap rucks with Kreuzer used around the ground using his footy smarts as a utility where needed. Cloke as a backup helping develop the new rookie ruckman in the Ants. Delist Ackland and Aisake.

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Author:	Elwood Blues1 [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:36 pm ]
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River Rodent has covered all the players very well... No to picking up some tired over the hill ruckman either.....persist with our young ruckman is the way to go.....

Author:	coffee man [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:37 pm ]
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Agree mostly though i would give Kreuz a bit of a break considering it was his first year and he was playing against the biggest men in the AFL... I wouldnt be surprised if he became a very good tap ruckman considering some of his efforts this year...

Author:	true blue19 [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:43 am ]
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i think we should look at setanta in the ruck and kreuzer as back up, give hampson more time to develop in the vfl. play cloke at chf and waite at chb. this also gives ratts the flexiblity of throwing setanta in to defence to play on guys like hale.

Author:	The Duke [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:54 am ]
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Maybe we're going to trade for Warnock and develop Hammer for trade to GC17. They'll need a big bodied, ready ruckman and we have one who also happens to be a Queenslander, eh. I'd take a top 10 pick for him in 2010 knowing we'd have Kreuz, Warnock and Jacobs.

Author:	Effes [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:04 am ]
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I thought Hampson's parents are moving to Melbourne? You wouldn't think he'd want to return to QLD.

Author:	fmurphy30 [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:23 pm ]
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I think Kruezer's centre square work improved a lot in the last few weeks. I had doubts about him as a pure ruckman as well, but with work and natural development, he should be a gun ruckman. I don't think he will be a forward. He might tease with the odd game or quarter, but his best work will be as a ruckman. Aisake and Ackland gone. Cloke's chances next year may be severely limited if we recruit an experienced ruckman or Warnock. He will not make it as a permanent forward, though I like his effort.

Author:	Donstuie [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:
Effes wrote: I thought Hampson's parents are moving to Melbourne? You wouldn't think he'd want to return to QLD. He's also signed for the blues for the next 2 (?) years

Author:	RiverRodent [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:21 pm ]
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Fabulous wrote: RR do you think Jacobs will get on the senior list for the 2009 season? Yes.

Author:	The Duke [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:00 am ]
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Donstuie wrote: Effes wrote: I thought Hampson's parents are moving to Melbourne? You wouldn't think he'd want to return to QLD. He's also signed for the blues for the next 2 (?) years 3 years I think, Don. Which means that it just gives us a better hand if we decided to go down that path.

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Author:	camel [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:22 am ]
Post subject:
Thanks for that post RR, looking forward to Jacobs getting a gig in 2009.