TalkingCarlton :: View topic - For those struggling to accept reality...

Nonetheless, he (Pagan) set about rebuilding a club ravaged by retirements and salary-cap penalties the only way he knew how.

From across the land he assembled a group of players short on recent opportunities and created a vision of a proud club hauling itself back to respectability through hard work and a collective will.

But if Brisbane and Leigh Matthews have slowly learnt that you cannot beat City Hall in a heated political battle, it must be dawning on Pagan and Carlton that you cannot beat the fine print of its rules and regulations either.

Just as Essendon* and Brisbane are learning the hard way that a lack of quality draft picks will always bring you to your knees, Carlton's bid to circumvent that inevitability is also crumbling.

Look, i'm a bit mixed with the whole draft picks issue. I really believe that we are where we are today NOT because of the draft picks we missed out on, but because of the draft picks that we got.

We had problems BEFORE we lost those picks. Wasted efforts in the recruitrment department is the reason as to why we are struggling.

That you can only get so far without talent, and the only way to ensure talent is high draft picks.

Yep we've wasted a lot of our draft picks since 2000 but at least we had the actual picks to F@%&#! Up.

Bluebernz wrote:

Yep we've wasted a lot of our draft picks since 2000 but at least we had the actual picks to F@%&#! Up.

But we also gave a lot of them up for has beens like O'Reilly, Mansfield, Devenport, McKernan. It's not just the ones we lost from the salary cap sanctions it's all those others that have left us so short of talent especially in 23-29 year olds.

I'm like you ryan2000 (and I guess many other supporters) I can see the reasons from both sides why we should or shouldn't bottom out. There are good arguments on both sides which is why there isn't a whopping majority on this issue (the poll we had last week indicated a 60-40 split).

It says "Tank it" for draft picks, handfulls of them.

I can't agree with the sentiment.

The Vet wrote:

It says "Tank it" for draft picks, handfulls of them.

I can't agree with the sentiment.

Thank you. I said that originally, and for some reason, people think that tripe published under the dubious title of "comment" seems to be thought of as some brainwave by Ralph.

Author:	George Harris [ Sun May 15, 2005 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	For those struggling to accept reality...
Read this... "Blues need to swallow their pride" http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 62,00.html Unfortunately we've already suffered the pain, but didn't experience the gain, thanks to draft penalties co-inciding with a wooden spoon. Call it bad luck, a co-incidence, or a vendetta - which ever way, it's done now.

Author:	Kaptain Kouta [ Sun May 15, 2005 12:22 pm ]
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It's a fairly c-grade article, or "op-ed" piece. Doesn't say much. Lots of piss and wind really, signifying nothing. We're a woeful side? Pffft. We're not good, but far from woeful. Ralph is a Bummers fan, I think. You want woeful, look in your own backyard, Ralph. What's the point he's trying to make about Mott, Kenna, Harford and McCormick? From the sound of the article, and I read it twice to make sure I wasn't reading it with just my Carlton Glasses on, he is endorsing the Tanking method of cheating the draft. Yes, cheating. Just another waste of precious tree resources by the genii at News.

Author:	malbi [ Sun May 15, 2005 12:38 pm ]
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He was fairly spot on except for the "swallowing our pride" bit. If we could have picked up early draft picks then we would have. We had no choice about the matter.

Author:	Bluebernz [ Sun May 15, 2005 12:48 pm ]
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Quote: Nonetheless, he (Pagan) set about rebuilding a club ravaged by retirements and salary-cap penalties the only way he knew how. From across the land he assembled a group of players short on recent opportunities and created a vision of a proud club hauling itself back to respectability through hard work and a collective will. But if Brisbane and Leigh Matthews have slowly learnt that you cannot beat City Hall in a heated political battle, it must be dawning on Pagan and Carlton that you cannot beat the fine print of its rules and regulations either. Just as Essendon* and Brisbane are learning the hard way that a lack of quality draft picks will always bring you to your knees, Carlton's bid to circumvent that inevitability is also crumbling. Great article. Spot on John Ralph!

Author:	ryan2000 [ Sun May 15, 2005 1:18 pm ]
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Look, i'm a bit mixed with the whole draft picks issue. I really believe that we are where we are today NOT because of the draft picks we missed out on, but because of the draft picks that we got. We had problems BEFORE we lost those picks. Wasted efforts in the recruitrment department is the reason as to why we are struggling. While we were picking players such as Vance ect, ect, ect other teams were drafting for the future. What we need to do now (and what we have started to do too with kids such as Russell and Hartlett) is look for the future and NOT a short term fix. But i could seriously look to Delisting quite a few players this year as in...................Bowyer, Clarke DeLuca, Johnson & Possibly Wiggens. Trade the likes of Norman (which saddens me) Whitnall (which also saddens me!) Scotland (if anybody wants him!) and Prendagast (see Scotland). Draft quality kids and look to the future rather than a quick fix. As much as my ultimate dream would be to see my Hero Kouta lead this team to a premiership, i think right now..........i would rather see him stick with the club and be a mentor for these young kids! Not just because he is an absolute Champion of the highest order..........but also because he is the most Honest and Fairest Football player i have ever seen! I could not think of a better role model! So, whilst we are a rable now, i do believe in the youth that we have at the moment! YES - even Davies who i believe can be an absolute Superstar!

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

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Author:	Blues2005 [ Sun May 15, 2005 1:41 pm ]
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ryan2000 wrote: Look, i'm a bit mixed with the whole draft picks issue. I really believe that we are where we are today NOT because of the draft picks we missed out on, but because of the draft picks that we got. We had problems BEFORE we lost those picks. Wasted efforts in the recruitrment department is the reason as to why we are struggling. I reckon that's a pretty good point. We harp on about missing Goddard, Wells etc and no doubt having them in the side would make us better. However, in the 2000 draft, we had picks 4, 11 and 15 and didn't really capitalise on that. Livo is an ok player who's important structurally but for years many supporters were calling us to get rid of him! Sporn was pick 11 and he has been injured I know and he has some ability definitely but pick 11? Wiggins was pick 15 and whilst he tries very hard he's just a battler at the moment, however I do think he has improved this season. But a first round pick? You can also look back to Murray Vance at pick 6 in 1998 and Kris Massie at pick 7 in 1997. I know that every club has these stories but in recent enough times we've had 5 picks in the top 15 and as a whole, for a variety of reasons, we haven't got anywhere near what we could and should have out of it.

Author:	Effes [ Sun May 15, 2005 1:43 pm ]
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We had no picks (by our own choice) in the first 2 rounds of THE BEST DRAFT EVER in 2001.

Author:	BlueWorld [ Sun May 15, 2005 1:46 pm ]
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Quote: That you can only get so far without talent, and the only way to ensure talent is high draft picks. We brought all those players in because we did not have access to high draft picks. What else were we to do? Once we can start using the draft most of the recycled players will go. We did pick up Teague who will play with us long term and has already won a B&F. Also did well out of French and Scotland & Bannister have been good at times.

Author:	Bluebernz [ Sun May 15, 2005 2:07 pm ]
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ryan2000 wrote: Look, i'm a bit mixed with the whole draft picks issue. I really believe that we are where we are today NOT because of the draft picks we missed out on, but because of the draft picks that we got. We had problems BEFORE we lost those picks. Wasted efforts in the recruitrment department is the reason as to why we are struggling. Yep we've wasted a lot of our draft picks since 2000 but at least we had the actual picks to @#$%&! Up. Our Draft Penalties meant that we didn't even get any Draft Picks to @#$%&! Up whatsoever!! I guess that's what pisses me of the most. We finish Stone Motherless LAST.... that's the time when you need to draft the most... and what happens?... we get excluded from having any meaningful participation for not 1 but 2 years!! For me personally (and this probably won't be very logical to many but I don't give a shit) the reason why I'm supporting bottoming out this year is to at least make make up for one of those years of having no picks. Do it for one year only! That's all I'm looking for! Something to at least balance the ledger. I want to get the "reward" we missed out on for genuinely finishing last 3 year ago! flower AFL cheated us so @#$%&! it, I'll cheat them back!!!! ... Using their own rules and their [REDACTED] up equalisation system to boot!... I can live with that sort of "cheating". Screw those BASTARDS Demetriou and Evans!!! If we're still crap after bottoming out this year, fine! I wouldn't advocate playing for a priority pick again and just let the competition take it's natural course. If we're still crap we'll get the picks anyway and if we're mediocre then that's fine as well... Geelong has shown it can be done without bottoming out. At least we're not in the positon we're in now wtih a huge 2 year chunk of draft picks missing from our list. I'm like you ryan2000 (and I guess many other supporters) I can see the reasons from both sides why we should or shouldn't bottom out. There are good arguments on both sides which is why there isn't a whopping majority on this issue (the poll we had last week indicated a 60-40 split). It basically boils down to a choice between the Heart or the Head. Such is the DILEMMA facing all Carlton supporters at the moment!

Author:	BlueWorld [ Sun May 15, 2005 2:15 pm ]
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Bluebernz wrote: Yep we've wasted a lot of our draft picks since 2000 but at least we had the actual picks to F@%&#! Up. But we also gave a lot of them up for has beens like O'Reilly, Mansfield, Devenport, McKernan. It's not just the ones we lost from the salary cap sanctions it's all those others that have left us so short of talent especially in 23-29 year olds.

Author:	Bluebernz [ Sun May 15, 2005 2:26 pm ]
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BlueWorld wrote: Bluebernz wrote: Yep we've wasted a lot of our draft picks since 2000 but at least we had the actual picks to F@%&#! Up. But we also gave a lot of them up for has beens like O'Reilly, Mansfield, Devenport, McKernan. It's not just the ones we lost from the salary cap sanctions it's all those others that have left us so short of talent especially in 23-29 year olds. Agree with you BW. That's what I'm getting at. Whether it was through our draft choices or our trades, we had draft picks which we totally [REDACTED] up one way or another.

Author:	Robert Heatley [ Sun May 15, 2005 3:08 pm ]
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Quote: I'm like you ryan2000 (and I guess many other supporters) I can see the reasons from both sides why we should or shouldn't bottom out. There are good arguments on both sides which is why there isn't a whopping majority on this issue (the poll we had last week indicated a 60-40 split). I'm always intrigued by the assumption that bottoming out is a conscious decision. Unfortunately I think our list can take care of it themselves without doing anything deliberate to bottom out. Our link to being competitive is tenous at best. (eg What if French, Fev, Thornton and Kouta got injured?) I think the conscious decision we need to make is who amongst the young players will be with the club for a few years and play them all together in the Bullants (I'm thinking Walker, Simpson, Russell, Hartlett, Blackwell, Bentick in particular) and develop them in a winning side - let them get to know each others capabilities. My recollection is that the Geelong youngsters played a season together in the reserves and may have even won a flag. Instead of a revolving door of Bowyer, Bannister, McGrath, Johnson, Morrell, lets keep playing them - see who stands up and who doesn't secure in the knowledge that they will keep getting a game for the rest of the year. At the end of the year we will know who can stand up to AFL footy on a consistent basis. It maybe none of them, but hopefully someone will step up. To further explain, I think dropping them to the Bullants gives them a release - they come back a couple of weeks later with a renewed attitude. If they are going to get better and be of any use to us - they need to learn how to be a consistent player week in week out and they can only do that by playing sore, playing against the best and encountering the scrutiny of being a senior footballer.

Author:	Synbad [ Sun May 15, 2005 9:11 pm ]
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Would people prefer to win 6 games or 5???

Author:	grrofunger [ Sun May 15, 2005 9:23 pm ]
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2.5 synbad

Author:	Maxwell Smart [ Mon May 16, 2005 12:22 pm ]
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I've got a very poor sense of direction....I keep forgetting which way is forward.. " Geoffery Parfitt "

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Author:	AGRO [ Sun May 15, 2005 9:50 pm ]
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Cue, Loretta, or is that Stan?????

Author:	The Vet [ Sun May 15, 2005 10:08 pm ]
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It says "Tank it" for draft picks, handfulls of them. I can't agree with the sentiment.

Author:	Kaptain Kouta [ Sun May 15, 2005 10:39 pm ]
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The Vet wrote: It says "Tank it" for draft picks, handfulls of them. I can't agree with the sentiment. Thank you. I said that originally, and for some reason, people think that tripe published under the dubious title of "comment" seems to be thought of as some brainwave by Ralph.

Author:	Bluebernz [ Mon May 16, 2005 12:27 am ]
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Kaptain Kouta wrote: The Vet wrote: It says "Tank it" for draft picks, handfulls of them. I can't agree with the sentiment. Thank you. I said that originally, and for some reason, people think that tripe published under the dubious title of "comment" seems to be thought of as some brainwave by Ralph. Had to laugh coz I think I'm missing something. KK, I assume your comment was directed at me. Explain to me how you came to the conclusion that "people" who happen to agree with the gist of the article must think it's "some brainwave" by Jon Ralph?!

Author:	Soylent_Blue [ Mon May 16, 2005 11:55 am ]
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Not sure that 'tanking' is the solution, The AFL sees we are in line for some high rnd draft picks and I fear a team of Auditors will be pilfering through Carltons books from September to Draft eve... If not, we will be the first team to stripped of draft picks after being found guilty of 'Tanking'. Just a little gunshy when it come to draft picks nowdays. Agree that the draft picks we lost will start hurting in about 2-3 years.