TalkingCarlton :: View topic - The Defensive Revolution

I know its early in the year to suggest something like this, but I wonder if the development of the backline may encourage Carlton to give Thornton his previous "wish" and trade him to the Hawks at the end of the year.

Following the threads on the Recruitment thread, they may even cough up Thorp for him. It remains to be seen if we would want Thorp or not. I also don't like the way the Hawks "deal" with other clubs as they subscribe to the Malthouse/Sheedy theory of not trading unless they can put you over a barrell....

Particularly if Austin continues to get better and looks capable of holding a key position, Bower and Jamison are first-choice defenders now, and Waite remains back with Setanta..... we can't play everyone there.

It's a good problem to have, even though we lack a "power" defender. The defence is improving.

Maybe with the extended defence, we can afford to move Waite back forward or Thornton may get his wish to have a go. Who knows?

A lot of it is because we are putting a bit more pressure on our oppositions midfield...

We are supplying them less and the qualtity hasnt been as good

fmurphy30 wrote:

i was thinking the same thing, i think thronton is a bit overrated and we've got better options for the same position he plays in bower and jamison and hopefully austin will come through. if we can trade thornton to hawthorn as part of a deal for thorp i'd be ecstatic, even if we had to thrown in scotland or houlihan or carrazzo.

true_blue3 wrote:

fmurphy30 wrote:

Thornton+Scotland/Thornton+Carrazzo for Thorp? You've got to be joking.

To me our recruitment for this year needs to be a ruckman, more skilled midfielders and some other marking forward options.

(eg. Warnock, Prismall & McKinley added to about 5 new kids plus rookies)

how many games has thorp played...

I'd still rather have JK back than Thorp. At least we know what we would be getting.

Author:	fmurphy30 [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:37 am ]
Post subject:	The Defensive Revolution
Carlton's defence has improved greatly this year, with the development of Bower and Jamison in particular. When they are available, this allows Thornton some latitude to be creative and Waite as well. Setanta is handy back up and Browne has slotted in like a glove. I've been rapt in our development in this regard, and it is clearly our best area of improvement for the year. At the end of last year, we were desperate for a big key backman, but at the moment, we have coped pretty well, even though we have an abundance of "third talls". The question: have we got that much better? Or has AFL footy changed? Carlton's greatest drama in defence is still against the "big" forwards: Brown, Lloyd (though he's fading), Tredrea and probably Buddy when we play him. Our smaller backmen seem to have developed at a time in the game that the power forward is less prevalent (or effective). Most of Buddy's goals are on the fast lead - though he has added body strength this year. Fevola is a leading player. Conversely, Lloyd is struggling, Tredrea is largely a fading force. Gehrig is gone. Mooney (prior to Friday) has had a so-so year. We have a looong way to go. But defensively we look better. This could be development, luck, or foresight in the changing nature of the game... Has the speed of the game made the power forward almost obsolete? By extension, has this made our backline look better this year than it was last year, simply by the change in pace?

Author:	true_blue3 [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:53 am ]
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i think that's selling our defense a bit short. while the speed of the game may have made it a little harder for power forwards (in which i wouldn't include lloyd), i attribute most of the improvement in our defence to them getting a better chemistry and understanding happening, to the coaching staff identifying thsi as a weakness and working on it heavily, to the improved midfield pressure put on the opposition, to the development and maturity of our younger players (jamison, bower etc.) and to a gameplan which is more about keeping possession of the ball which may or may not have been implemented in an effort to help out our weak defence. all we need now is to actually get our best defence on the park at the same time and i think we've got a really strong defence. i think with the players we've got right now in our defence we'll still struggle with the power forwards who are 195cm+ (brown, franklin, hall etc.) only because we don't have any one big enough to play on them yet. waite would be the best option but even he is giving away a few kilos and centimetres.

Author:	budzy [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:06 am ]
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Good thread. Fast forwarding a couple of years I think power forwards Jono Brown, Buddy and possibly the TomaHawk will cause us the most problems and we'll have to play an extra tall back against those guys and have a good defensive plan ready for those games. I think we're developing a good mix of tall/small attacking/defensive backs to tackle the other sides. Fantastic to see Aussie coming along nicely. Don't be in a rush to get him in ...just let him build confidence and fitness and the patience will pay off.

Author:	cj69 [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:33 am ]
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Good thread! I like the way our backline is developing. In the near future we will have guys that can play on the big forwards in Setanta & Austin. Other tall options in Bower, Thornton & Jamison. Shut down players in Armfield, Browne, Grigg and Anderson who will also provide us plenty of run (add Scotland & Walker) and use the ball well. Waite can then be used as an attacking midfielder with the ability to play loose in defence when required. (Would like to see Walker play that role as well) To me our recruitment for this year needs to be a ruckman, more skilled midfielders and some other marking forward options. (eg. Warnock, Prismall & McKinley added to about 5 new kids plus rookies) Get some games into our kids and recruit these players and we could jump up pretty quickly.

Author:	Juddanaught09 [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:57 am ]
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I don't think the backline is there yet but the signs are pretty good IMO. Bower and Jamison are both coming along very nicely and will only improve as they bulk up. Waite and Thornton are more experienced, even though the way we use them might be questionable. Even Austin is looking better and better in the Ants. I reckon this kid might settle into CHF before too long. He is a good height (194cm) and is still pretty young (19). Then there is Setanta who will, at the very least, be useful as a pinch hitter until some of these kids mature. As for containing the guys you mentioned, easier said then done. For a start Franklin is a freak and you will waste a lot of time trying to develop a player to cover him, you just have to get lucky really (Waite maybe). Brown and Hawkins just need one of our kids to put on some more size. Bower, Jamison and Austin are all tall enough to be the Rutten type defender we need but are simply too young at the moment. Give them time.

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The Defensive Revolution http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21559	Page 1 of 2

Author:	shuffagus [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:42 pm ]
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our defence has improved but still has a long way to go

Author:	danii [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:50 pm ]
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Our defense has improved out of sight this year, but there is still a long way to go. Austin and Joey both look very playing for the ants so the future is looking very bright

Author:	Fabulous [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:07 pm ]
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A lot of it is because we are putting a bit more pressure on our oppositions midfield... We are supplying them less and the qualtity hasnt been as good

Author:	Elwood Blues1 [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:22 pm ]
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As showed vs Port in the last quarter the best defense is to win the clearances and keep it down our end........you wont stop Franklin, Brown etc if they get supply but the Port forwards can testify that you cant kick goals if your teammates cant get the ball forward...

Author:	fmurphy30 [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:
I know its early in the year to suggest something like this, but I wonder if the development of the backline may encourage Carlton to give Thornton his previous "wish" and trade him to the Hawks at the end of the year. Following the threads on the Recruitment thread, they may even cough up Thorp for him. It remains to be seen if we would want Thorp or not. I also don't like the way the Hawks "deal" with other clubs as they subscribe to the Malthouse/Sheedy theory of not trading unless they can put you over a barrell.... Particularly if Austin continues to get better and looks capable of holding a key position, Bower and Jamison are first-choice defenders now, and Waite remains back with Setanta..... we can't play everyone there. It's a good problem to have, even though we lack a "power" defender. The defence is improving. Maybe with the extended defence, we can afford to move Waite back forward or Thornton may get his wish to have a go. Who knows?

Author:	true_blue3 [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:
fmurphy30 wrote: I know its early in the year to suggest something like this, but I wonder if the development of the backline may encourage Carlton to give Thornton his previous "wish" and trade him to the Hawks at the end of the year. Following the threads on the Recruitment thread, they may even cough up Thorp for him. It remains to be seen if we would want Thorp or not. I also don't like the way the Hawks "deal" with other clubs as they subscribe to the Malthouse/Sheedy theory of not trading unless they can put you over a barrell.... Particularly if Austin continues to get better and looks capable of holding a key position, Bower and Jamison are first-choice defenders now, and Waite remains back with Setanta..... we can't play everyone there. It's a good problem to have, even though we lack a "power" defender. The defence is improving. Maybe with the extended defence, we can afford to move Waite back forward or Thornton may get his wish to have a go. Who knows? i was thinking the same thing, i think thronton is a bit overrated and we've got better options for the same position he plays in bower and jamison and hopefully austin will come through. if we can trade thornton to hawthorn as part of a deal for thorp i'd be ecstatic, even if we had to thrown in scotland or houlihan or carrazzo.

Author:	Blues Clues [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:05 pm ]
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Fabulous wrote: A lot of it is because we are putting a bit more pressure on our oppositions midfield... We are supplying them less and the qualtity hasnt been as good A MAJOR factor. The midfield is so much better and stronger with Judd, Murphy, Hadley, AB's development, Stevo back etc. Would be very interested to know how many average inside 50's were conceding this year compared to 2007. Calling on our stats people, please.

Author:	jt [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:23 pm ]
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true_blue3 wrote: fmurphy30 wrote: I know its early in the year to suggest something like this, but I wonder if the development of the backline may encourage Carlton to give Thornton his previous "wish" and trade him to the Hawks at the end of the year. Following the threads on the Recruitment thread, they may even cough up Thorp for him. It remains to be seen if we would want Thorp or not. I also don't like the way the Hawks "deal" with other clubs as they subscribe to the Malthouse/Sheedy theory of not trading unless they can put you over a barrell.... Particularly if Austin continues to get better and looks capable of holding a key position, Bower and Jamison are first-choice defenders now, and Waite remains back with Setanta..... we can't play everyone there. It's a good problem to have, even though we lack a "power" defender. The defence is improving. Maybe with the extended defence, we can afford to move Waite back forward or Thornton may get his wish to have a go. Who knows? i was thinking the same thing, i think thronton is a bit overrated and we've got better options for the same position he plays in bower and jamison and hopefully austin will come through. if we can trade thornton to hawthorn as part of a deal for thorp i'd be ecstatic, even if we had to thrown in scotland or houlihan or carrazzo. Thornton+Scotland/Thornton+Carrazzo for Thorp? You've got to be joking.

Author:	true_blue3 [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:
jt wrote: true_blue3 wrote: fmurphy30 wrote: I know its early in the year to suggest something like this, but I wonder if the development of the backline may encourage Carlton to give Thornton his previous "wish" and trade him to the Hawks at the end of the year. Following the threads on the Recruitment thread, they may even cough up Thorp for him. It remains to be seen if we would want Thorp or not. I also don't like the way the Hawks "deal" with other clubs as they subscribe to the Malthouse/Sheedy theory of not trading unless they can put you over a barrell.... Particularly if Austin continues to get better and looks capable of holding a key position, Bower and Jamison are first-choice defenders now, and Waite remains back with Setanta..... we can't play everyone there. It's a good problem to have, even though we lack a "power" defender. The defence is improving. Maybe with the extended defence, we can afford to move Waite back forward or Thornton may get his wish to have a go. Who knows? i was thinking the same thing, i think thronton is a bit overrated and we've got better options for the same position he plays in bower and jamison and hopefully austin will come through. if we can trade thornton to hawthorn as part of a deal for thorp i'd be ecstatic, even if we had to thrown in scotland or houlihan or carrazzo. Thornton+Scotland/Thornton+Carrazzo for Thorp? You've got to be joking. yep, i'd be happy to do that. we are crying out for a key forward. scotland's best is behind him, and he's not going to be in our next premiership side. thornton i think we have enough options in defence to cover his loss. carrazzo, skills are shocking and while he still has a bit to offer i think we can cover his loss too. if we can get thorp and draft well this year, i think we'll be in a really good position to have a crack at a flag in 3 or 4 years.

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Author:	SparkyBlue [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:40 pm ]
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cj69 wrote: To me our recruitment for this year needs to be a ruckman, more skilled midfielders and some other marking forward options. (eg. Warnock, Prismall & McKinley added to about 5 new kids plus rookies) Warnock is coming home, it's a given. Melbourne or Essendon* are his favoured clubs - we'd need to do a deal with Freo to get him to the Blues... would be awesome though, I think he's only a year or so from hitting his straps. Don't think we need any more midfielders, I think a decent CHF and an established decent backman to hold the defence together is what we need...

Author:	shuffagus [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:32 pm ]
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how many games has thorp played...

Author:	true_blue3 [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:45 pm ]
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shuffagus wrote: how many games has thorp played... just the 1 so far but he's still only 19. at 194cm, he has the height to be the CHF we need.

Author:	fmurphy30 [ Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:45 am ]
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I'd still rather have JK back than Thorp. At least we know what we would be getting.

Author:	true_blue3 [ Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:08 am ]
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fmurphy30 wrote: I'd still rather have JK back than Thorp. At least we know what we would be getting. yeah i agree, but looking at it realistically our chances of getting thorp are significantly larger a)because he is and will find it hard to get a game with roughead and franklin and b)we have better trade options to give to the hawks, especially as we know they are interested in thornton and we don't have any WA players who could be used in a trade for kennedy, they'll want more than just bower and i'm not too keen on losing bower i'd much rather lose thronton.

Author:	Princes Park Whistler [ Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:17 am ]
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I think Ratts has been influenced by David Parkin`s approach that a strong defence wins premierships and has made building that his focus.It is chalk and cheese compared with last year.We will add more quality to the midfield and forward line at the draft this year putting us in a very strong position.