TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Worshiping a False Idol

Geelong has not won a premiership since 1963.
StKilda's best 22 will crush Geelong's best 22.
Could you imagine what Denis would do with StKilda's list?

How's that for a voice of reason? Denis has said it himself, we are thin on talent but until yesterday we had a significant number of players who try hard.

Judging by many comments here the Draft is THE ONLY solution.

Geelong had 2 1st round draft picks.
St Kilda had 9 1st round draft picks.

Geelong had 3 2nd round draft picks.
St Kilda had 2 2nd round draft picks.

Geelong had 6 3rd round draft picks.
St Kilda had 1 3rd round draft picks.

No-one on Geelong's weekend squad were drafted better than pick 8. In fact 13 of Geelong's 22 were from the 1999, 2000 and 2001 drafts. The fruits of clever drafting are ripening now that this core group of players have around 5 years in the system. Geelong have been patient and single minded in building a list without playing for priority picks.

A full strength St.K played a full strength Geel at TD last year rd1 and won by 10 goals.

A full strength Geel played a saints team missing 5 backmen and a ruck at skilled and won by 7pts

A full strength Geel played a Saints team missing 2 key forwards who then lost 2 players by halftime and another early in the last 1/4 and limped over the line by 18pts

The draft my friend can be a wonderful thing but St.Kilda didn't its team solely on draft picks. They traded well too and are easily a better team than the cats

Lets take a look at the 2000 draft:

1) Riewoldt - superstar
2) Koschitzke - gun
3) Didak - dud
4) Livingston - dud
5) McDougall - dud
6) Dylan Smith - dud (delisted by Roos at end of 2003)
7) Angwin - dud (headcase)

Motlop - gun
9) Pettifer - dud
10) J McMahon - ?
11) Sporn ?

Sometimes I think people can get a bit carried away with obtaining high draft picks. There are dozens of class players who weren't high draft picks eg) Goodes, Fev, B Harvey, C Bruce etc...Astute trading can do wonders - J Clement & A McPhee were both All Australian players last year. Also I think we need to be more patient with our young players.

Author:	Jarusa [ Sun May 08, 2005 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Worshiping a False Idol
Seems the people are being lead to worship at the feet of a False Idol, the golden calf that is the draft. Sodom and Gomorrah revisited. Judging by many comments here the Draft is THE ONLY solution. The only way out. The draft is there to be used, it is how smart the club uses it that is the biggest key, not tanking games in the hope of priority picks. Let's look at the Geelong v St Kilda game for a good example. Geelong beat St Kilda. In the respective squads of 22: Geelong had 2 1st round draft picks. St Kilda had 9 1st round draft picks. Geelong had 3 2nd round draft picks. St Kilda had 2 2nd round draft picks. Geelong had 6 3rd round draft picks. St Kilda had 1 3rd round draft picks. No-one on Geelong's weekend squad were drafted better than pick 8. In fact 13 of Geelong's 22 were from the 1999, 2000 and 2001 drafts. The fruits of clever drafting are ripening now that this core group of players have around 5 years in the system. Geelong have been patient and single minded in building a list without playing for priority picks. It can be done.

Author:	Effes [ Sun May 08, 2005 9:52 am ]
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Geelong have been very lucky with the F/S rule

Author:	Wild Blue Yonder [ Sun May 08, 2005 9:55 am ]
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I reckon Geelong are still a few years off getting near it. One first round draft pick akin to Riewoldt would do me.

Author:	Deano Supremo [ Sun May 08, 2005 10:24 am ]
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Jarusa, you are a constant voice of reason. Thanks Brother.

Author:	BlueWorld [ Sun May 08, 2005 10:36 am ]
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2 years ago we got a PP (Walker) + Stevens. Obviously that hasn't made much difference. How many more times are we going to need to keep doing that?

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Author:	jbee [ Sun May 08, 2005 11:02 am ]
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Geelong has not won a premiership since 1963. StKilda's best 22 will crush Geelong's best 22. Could you imagine what Denis would do with StKilda's list? How's that for a voice of reason? Denis has said it himself, we are thin on talent but until yesterday we had a significant number of players who try hard.

Author:	Jarusa [ Sun May 08, 2005 11:15 am ]
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jbee wrote: Geelong has not won a premiership since 1963. StKilda's best 22 will crush Geelong's best 22. Could you imagine what Denis would do with StKilda's list? How's that for a voice of reason? Denis has said it himself, we are thin on talent but until yesterday we had a significant number of players who try hard. So are you saying that getting priority picks for 2-3 years is the only way to win a premiership? The premise of what I was trying to say was that priority picks are not the be all and end all, there are a myriad of factors that combine to produce a premiership team.

Author:	marciblue [ Sun May 08, 2005 12:21 pm ]
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With all due respect Jarusa, the aints went into yesterdays game without the reigning Coleman medallist, (hurts me to say) a rampaging Hamill, Reiwoldt coming back from injury, lost an AA in Jones, dual Brownlow medallist Harvey and KP in Kosi during the game and the cats just managed to get over the top in the last. With full lists to choose from the aints are probably a 5-6 goal better side. Seeing that essentially you are of the opinion that the draft is not the answer to our problems, even though it is the only avenue to introduce virginal talent to a club, what are some of the other options we have at out disposal? How can we improve a list that is very average at best? A list bereft of elite KP talent. A list with few guns in the on-ball brigade. A ruck division being carried by a single tryer (and lets pray he doesn't go down). Jarusa, what geniune hopes do you hold for this list of players for 2005 and beyond? We are in a system that doesn't allow us to enrol underage talent and develop players ala youth academies in soccer overseas. We cant go around and purchase players on the open market. We either draft players or trade for equal value during trade week. Now, as the science of drafting becomes more precise, it is universally acknowledged that the prime, elite underage talent is picked up in the 1st 4-5 picks of the draft. Following this range it is more of a hit and miss scenario. Sure some clubs are lucky to snare a McGuire, Dal Santo or Rivers in the 10's and 20's range but there are many more stories of picks in that same range that dont succeed. You cant use this argument for top 5 picks that often. I have followed this club since I was a tacker and I bleed to see the club lose anytime. But if we dont conform to this system we operate under and try to take advantage of it as best we can we are doomed to mediocrity for the best part of another decade. And I am not going to sit by and try and sugarcoat a hopeless situation if all it means is that we tread water for another handful of years. Sorry, the situation is drastic and I think it is time the club makes some drastic decisions.

Author:	Bluebernz [ Sun May 08, 2005 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worshiping a False Idol
Jarusa wrote: Judging by many comments here the Draft is THE ONLY solution. I don't think anybody here is saying that it is the ONLY solution, not me anyway. What we're saying is that it's the BEST solution. And I agree with the comments of Denis that our list lacks talent. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. And before anyone starts to say that this is an over-reaction to One Loss. For me it isn't. I haven't bagged our side once this year and I've only criticized one player once (and I believe that was justified for being suspended twice already this year). We've had 7 rounds now to assess our team and we badly need an injection of talent. The past two weeks against Hawthorn and Richmond especially have exposed our shortcomings. We all know about Geelong's situation Jarusa. I agree it can be done without the prized top picks. But they are more an exception rather than the rule. If the Top picks/ Priority picks mean so little why does it irk us so much when somebody else gets them?

Author:	nightcrawler [ Sun May 08, 2005 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worshiping a False Idol
Jarusa wrote: Geelong had 2 1st round draft picks. St Kilda had 9 1st round draft picks. Geelong had 3 2nd round draft picks. St Kilda had 2 2nd round draft picks. Geelong had 6 3rd round draft picks. St Kilda had 1 3rd round draft picks. No-one on Geelong's weekend squad were drafted better than pick 8. In fact 13 of Geelong's 22 were from the 1999, 2000 and 2001 drafts. The fruits of clever drafting are ripening now that this core group of players have around 5 years in the system. Geelong have been patient and single minded in building a list without playing for priority picks. All this means is that you're better off having 3rd round draft picks than NO draft picks and having to recycle someone elses crap. Geelong will prove this comphrehensively on Friday night and unforunately I will be there to see it in the flesh.

Author:	Synbad [ Sun May 08, 2005 2:27 pm ]
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Jarusa does footygeek look at injuries ?????? StKilda went into the game with a few key players out or under a cloud and lost a few early in the game before Geelong overan them in the last...

Author:	skeptic [ Sun May 08, 2005 2:42 pm ]
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A full strength St.K played a full strength Geel at TD last year rd1 and won by 10 goals. A full strength Geel played a saints team missing 5 backmen and a ruck at skilled and won by 7pts A full strength Geel played a Saints team missing 2 key forwards who then lost 2 players by halftime and another early in the last 1/4 and limped over the line by 18pts The draft my friend can be a wonderful thing but St.Kilda didn't its team solely on draft picks. They traded well too and are easily a better team than the cats

Author:	Synbad [ Sun May 08, 2005 2:54 pm ]
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skeptic wrote: A full strength St.K played a full strength Geel at TD last year rd1 and won by 10 goals. A full strength Geel played a saints team missing 5 backmen and a ruck at skilled and won by 7pts A full strength Geel played a Saints team missing 2 key forwards who then lost 2 players by halftime and another early in the last 1/4 and limped over the line by 18pts The draft my friend can be a wonderful thing but St.Kilda didn't its team solely on draft picks. They traded well too and are easily a better team than the cats No you didnt do it by using the draft you traded.. well you couldnt have got Hamill and G Train if you wernt last could you? Same with Black.. so im guessing you did it by being last for a period and not because youre geniuses over there. if you were geniuses you might have won more than 1 premiership and less than 26 wooden sppons. all that you said goes to prove is coming last is a fool proof way to improve even if youre stkilda...

Author:	Humpers [ Sun May 08, 2005 3:23 pm ]
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Lets take a look at the 2000 draft: 1) Riewoldt - superstar 2) Koschitzke - gun 3) Didak - dud 4) Livingston - dud 5) McDougall - dud 6) Dylan Smith - dud (delisted by Roos at end of 2003) 7) Angwin - dud (headcase) Motlop - gun 9) Pettifer - dud 10) J McMahon - ? 11) Sporn ? Sometimes I think people can get a bit carried away with obtaining high draft picks. There are dozens of class players who weren't high draft picks eg) Goodes, Fev, B Harvey, C Bruce etc...Astute trading can do wonders - J Clement & A McPhee were both All Australian players last year. Also I think we need to be more patient with our young players.

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Author:	Synbad [ Mon May 09, 2005 12:46 am ]
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Humpers wrote: Lets take a look at the 2000 draft: 1) Riewoldt - superstar 2) Koschitzke - gun 3) Didak - dud 4) Livingston - dud 5) McDougall - dud 6) Dylan Smith - dud (delisted by Roos at end of 2003) 7) Angwin - dud (headcase) Motlop - gun 9) Pettifer - dud 10) J McMahon - ? 11) Sporn ? Sometimes I think people can get a bit carried away with obtaining high draft picks. There are dozens of class players who weren't high draft picks eg) Goodes, Fev, B Harvey, C Bruce etc...Astute trading can do wonders - J Clement & A McPhee were both All Australian players last year. Also I think we need to be more patient with our young players. all that suggests is youre better of coming last and getting Riewoldt and Kosi than not coming last and getting nothing... so youve just proved that youre better off with a top pick... and why pick that draft get into the others too.. for example what would you have got with a top 6 pick he next year??

Author:	mikkey [ Mon May 09, 2005 8:02 am ]
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Humpers wrote: Lets take a look at the 2000 draft: 1) Riewoldt - superstar 2) Koschitzke - gun 3) Didak - dud 4) Livingston - dud 5) McDougall - dud 6) Dylan Smith - dud (delisted by Roos at end of 2003) 7) Angwin - dud (headcase) Motlop - gun 9) Pettifer - dud 10) J McMahon - ? 11) Sporn ? Sometimes I think people can get a bit carried away with obtaining high draft picks. There are dozens of class players who weren't high draft picks eg) Goodes, Fev, B Harvey, C Bruce etc...Astute trading can do wonders - J Clement & A McPhee were both All Australian players last year. Also I think we need to be more patient with our young players. Correct me if I am wrong, but we did not just loose 2 priority picks (Goddard and Wells) on black Friday. We lost first, second and third (?) round draft picks for 2 years which is a total of potentially 8 good young kids. That is a huge disadvantage that will haunt us for years.

Author:	Humpers [ Mon May 09, 2005 8:23 am ]
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If you look at the 2002 draft it isn't much better - take out D Wells and you don't have much else to get excited about. B Goddard will never be anything special. All I'm saying is that high draft picks are no guarantee of recruiting future champions.