Lets get fair dinkum about our list.

Bannister (Tagger say no more)
Bentick (Good kids play plenty of senior games in their first year)
Betts (bit part player small forwards dont win flags)
Blackwell (see Bentick)
Bowyer (tough, committed, slow, skilled not)
Bryan (nup)
Campo (turning 30)
Carrots (Ok but kicking ??)
Chambers (fumbles)
Clarke (cant get a game in ones kicking poor)
Davies (talented but is he committed)
Deluca (needs time, may make it)
Fev (Champion but)
Fish (gun but that knee?)
French (thank god we got him, but 29)
Hartlett (giver him a chance)
Houlihan (very bad today soft and kicking poor)
Johnson (poor kick, too slow)
Kouta (33)
Lappo (good but 29)
Livo (I like but can he keep fit??)
Longmuir (go home, Demons and Freo already seen the light)
McGrath (best role is tagging)
Morrell (we need big men and cant get a game)
Karl (talent yes, brain power no)
Prenda (just makes it number 22 in best 22)
Raso (must stay)
Russell (real guns make impression in first season ???)
Scotland (not playing well at present)
Simo (will make it)
Sporn (how may years do we give him)
Stevo (does he want to play for the Pies ??)
Teague (Gun but to small for the role he plays)
T - Bird (gun)
Waite (kicking ???? one bbq does not make a summer)
Walker (ok but look at Cooney pick one -long way off)
Lance (looks slow again)
Wiggo (heart yes, talent no)

Irishman )O'hailpin(Premiership CHF's Walls, Maclure, Sticks not in this life time)

I agree on most but Livo needs more convincing
Simo needs to bulk up to make it i feel.

After reading this boy we look very poor

So Lance, do we get rid of the whole team then?? Let's get a bit of perspective here because I don't think we will win a flag with just Raso & Simpson.

Do you see no more improvement in Jarrad Waite who has played all of 36 games? Or Walker in his 2nd season?

Do you think that Stevo, averaging at least 25 possies a game is not useful to us?

And Betts, while he won't win us a flag, last time I checked it was a team game & most premiership teams could use a small forward...

Lance3101 (kind of supporter the Carlton Football Club don't need)

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

k - your comments there suggest you are infact a closet richmond supporter.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

He just Saying what he think and most is true, Betts will be handy but need others to do well up there with him Stevens tries dont really agree about the Magpies coment, Walker he just doesn't rate high as some other young draft picks that started the same time,he doesn't say he will not improve but doesn't seem like he will be a Superstar and Waite he was a bit hard on but he does go quiet a lot but he will improve.

The problem with most Carlton fan are just like in life think they can never be ordinary they alway think how great they are but they not it's as simple as that we are cocky we can't admit it there always some excuse i used to say we miss this player this player the bottom line is we use excuses and then have faith on them winning the next week, they may win but fall back the week after. The simple facts we haven't got the players.

we got a 2 year ban on picking the best, had a ageing team when this happen, we got weak draft picks before the ban and had to pick recycyled players that no other club really dont want who most wont be around in a couple of years.We are about 5 years away from the top sides is the answer get rid of the whole team no but i think Pagan will chop several in the next couple of years and only pick youth if we have a poor year.

Recycled players is a short term solution that looks like backfiring as it should have made us a chance for the 8 this year, maybe it's better on the bottom and getting a player that plays ten years not 2-4 years.

Again another Carlton Supporter that doesn't like to know the Team are avearge and think they have a great side. He trying to be honest with what we got he not really giving the players a bagging just pointing out they not very good.

No I'm sorry Al, but he has just about canned the whole side!! I have no problem with someone giving their opinion but they need to be up for a bit of discussion as that's what we are here to do yes? The only positive comment I saw was on Raso (who, mind you has not played a senior game as yet!!!) & Simo (who, IMO has not played well enough to warrant ever playing in a grand final team, cos that's what this post is about isn't it???). I am quite realistic about the team and where we are at, shit, I've been watching them since I was 6. While I agree that we don't have the team to take us to a grand final, it looks from Lance's post that we will need to get rid of all except Raso & Simo if we are to have any chance!!

It's been an extremely disappointing day I know but geez, I would like to know what Lance thought of the players above after the Wiz cup GF. All I am asking for is a little bit of perspective.

Hey Lance ..... where do you rate Norman ???

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

Ok my take is we are a bottom 4 list.. and probably bottom 2.
We wont go anywhere as long as look to the past. see ya Lance Kouta and Campo.. thats 2 million dollars i can bring in elite talent if i can manage to convince the coach to not worry about meaningless wins that take us to over 5 victories and continue punishing us from going forward.
Ill say it again.. unless this list finishes near the bottom (preferrably last) so we can bring in a Deledio Franklin Tambling etc to add to Walker Betts Waite.. were pissing against the wind.. Coming last will also allow us to throw the big bucks at a player who will change the dynamics of the footy club. (A player in the calibre of Brown , Ball, Judd, Riewoldt) Dont bring in a player like that and you continue hanging on to the likes of Kouta, Campo and Whitnall soaking up near 2 million dollars and were treading water!!!No in fact were going backwards.. all the other teams are improving their lists because theyre not afraid to take a step back to take two forwards.
I challenge anyone to show me how we dont have a bottom 3 or 4 list.
Denis is trying to turn shit into strawberry jam.

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Look I don't think anyone here would argue we have an average list. However, we have the list that our current TPP and past draft picks have allowed us.

It's no coincidence that the two teams (Rich & WB) sharing the cellar with us over the past 3 years (3 teams if you include Melbourne) are now making huge strides forward. The big difference?

We were gutted with loss of draft picks and position in the PSD in the years that we needed them the most. They weren't. We have done the best with limited opportunities. Its not that friggin easy with one hand tied behind your back.

There is nothing we can do about it - so why whinge? The list has been massively turned over in the past two years. We got rid of players like Hulme, Manton, Plunkett etc, but you can only do so many at the end of each year. Essentially our rebuilding starts this year, as the first year we have been fully allowed in the draft again.

There is little doubt that some of these guys will not make it through to next season. You don't think Pagan is smart enough to figure it out? Until then, these guys are busting their arses to do their best for the team and also to try and save their jobs for next year (the ones whose jobs aren't on the line might need a good kick up the arse though). It is the coach and selectors' job to give each of these guys fair consideration for what they can bring to the team.

The least we can do is to support the club and the players in their efforts to put together a competitive equation. We don't have to like such performances but there's bugger all we can do about the list at this point in time. So just suck it up and get over it.

Let's just throw the baby out with the bathwater hey...

We don't have a great list but we knew that anyway. I still believe we've easily got enough talent to be playing better than we are. A high draft pick or two isn't going to suddenly transform us from an average list to a top one.

You'd have to think that Lance is in trouble come the end of the season and Kouta won't be around much longer anyway. I don't mind Camporeale and I know it's an issue which has polarised the TalkingCarlton community but I still think he's valuable to us..

We haven't even seen Jordan Russell yet. Who knows he may be a gun. Walker is taking a bit of time but I think eventually he'll be a very good player. Waite has shown a lot this season as has Carrazzo. Fisher still hasn't played and he's in our best 22. Betts is an excitement machine. Kade Simpson showed a bit today and just needs more faith shown in him. Setanta could prove valuable down the track. It's a shame Norman can't get his head right because he's certainly got talent. I just don't think our list is as bad as some people make out. It's NOT great and we could do with a further injection of talent but we're certainly not 85 points worse than Richmond.

The problem is confidence. Lack of confidence spreads through the team like a cancer. Someone else said in another thread that when we get on a roll we can be irresistible but we are mentally fragile and I'd agree with that. We're the only side this season to have beaten West Coast remember. Nobody can tell me that they weren't trying and that it was only the Wizard Cup. The West Coast side that we beat that night is about as good in terms of player availability, or even better than the current side and we beat them fair and square and in doing so, at times made them look ordinary.

I just think we're going to continue to experience peaks and troughs and yes we need some more talent but I don't think we're as badly off as some people obviously think.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Oh i never leave early.. i never bag the players at a game.. but you dont have to be Einstein to work out what were up against.
Lack of leadership from players interested in self preservation and not with the future of the club.
We need to come low... when i say low .. i mean VERY low...!!!!

If we dont get an injection of REAL talent.. i mean super talent virginal and bought were gone!!! Last year of the Priority pick.. i think we should be smart enough to use it. As well as get rid of some bloodsuckers from the salary cap and go after a player with the capability of turning the club around.

Were in danger of becoming a nothing club .... the signs are on the wall..

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Bannister- Tagger, better than most on list
Bentick- a kid in his second year, given time he should make it
Betts- Trys hard, is always putting himself in position to damage the opposition. Loads of talent.
Blackwell- talented kid, too early to tell
Bowyer- Delist
Bryan- Delist
Campo- $200,000 midfielder, not a star, getting old
Carrazzo- Good young kid, a keeper
Chambers- Has shown a bit, too early to tell but I think he's a keeper
Clarke- Delist
Davies- Trade/Delist
Deluca- Lots of Potential, needs to work on ruckwork
Fevola- Inconsistant
Fisher- Unproven with talent
French- Good ruckman but getting old
Hartlett- Talented kid
Houlihan- Needs to run more
Johnson- Good clearence player, never be a star
Kouta- still good but gettting old
Lappo - good but getting old
Livo- Injury prone but has shown a bit as a key defender
Longmuir- delist
McGrath- delist
Morrell- delist
Karl- delist/trade, talented but disinterested
Prenda- delist
Raso- kid
Russell- shown improvement, talented and quick
Scotland- good midfielder
Simo-talented, give another year
Sporn- delist/trade
Stevo- Star
Teague- Star
T - Bird- Gun
Waite- Gun
Walker- talented
Lance- $150,000 player, potential trade
Wiggo- delist/trade

Ok but is our list better than bottom 4???
If not.. then were playing to our potential. You cant expect sides to be as bad as what we played last year .
11th was flattering.

You have to be realistic. who is our up and coming CHF? Waite?? Well hes miles from being a key position forward. He beat Joel Smith last week.. (Smith is an 185 cm hb flanker)
Hawthorn are odds on for the wooden spoon and they should have beaten us. Last years 14 losses in a row beat us. Essendon* could have beaten us.. collingwood did beat us.

Were not saying throw the baby out.. but theres alot of bathwater to get thrown out...

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Lance3101, seriously grow up.

Whatever happened to trying to stay positive?
Do you actually think you are the only one who is hurting at the moment?
Everyone is.
Denis, the club officials, the players, supporters, members...everyone!

Posts like yours are nothing but degrading and negative.

No need for them.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

So you're saying we should make sure we don't win more than 2 games for the rest of the year.

I just want to make sure we will go forward by taking the AFLs system coveted wooden spooners spot. ...

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I cant believe I'm saying this. But yeah... wouldn't mind seeing us finish near bottom this year.

We get 2 first round picks plus a decent shot at an uncontracted player in the PSD. That's 3 players. Hell! At the very least it partly makes up for being excluded from the draft for two years.

How many other clubs in AFL history have won the wooden spoon and yet not been allowed to participate in the the next two drafts?!? Apart from the Blues, the answer is NONE. And we are paying for it BIG TIME!!

It's time we took advantage of what could possibly be the last year of the Priority Pick. DO IT while it's still available. It's the best way for us to get some much needed talent in our side.

I'm not advocating tanking games by the way. Just play the kids from here on in. At least they will get some valuable experience.

Short term pain for long term gain folks. I'm prepared to wear that.
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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





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u know what? i reckon we should do what leigh matthews has done when he 1st arrived at the Lions, that is work on the backline first! (he recruited mal michael develop a forward by the name of leppich as a key defender). And i know we have holes in every @#$%&! department but I think we should just work on the backline first, develop/draft very good defenders. Just bloody get 6-7 defenders in the next draft! And maybe even develop Waite as a key defender.

@#$%&! we are shit and i hate it!