Ponkstar wrote:



That's precisely the problem, trying to play for themselves rather than the team. That's an easy way to lose.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Synbad - spot on,

Lets not beat around the bush we are are struggling big time and yes we are paying the price for not actively participating in the draft for two years. We have done the best we could considering the restrictions.

Some of you need to stop sugar coating the loss and our list.

We need an injection of class, the best Pagan can do is get the team up occassionaly and win a few games based on spirit rather than talent. Each week we are against teams with young real talent which we do not have.

I'm not being negative and I will still attend every Melbourne game and stay right to the end despite how much we lose by however I will not fluff around and bounce around the fact we need to seriously change our list again at the end of the year.

Really?
Bruce Doull played a couple of seasons of ressies, does that mean he was no good?
How about Greg Williams who was sent back to Bendigo in his first year?
Last years rising star winner played his first year in the VFL, is he no good?
Kouta played plenty of ressies, James Clement and Peter Bell were flicked, Geelong gave Primus the arse.

Bret Thornton, Tarkyn Lockyer, Brett Kirk, Mark Johnson, Aaron Davey and Chad Fletcher werent even considered good enough to draft.

Is there anyone there who wouldnt get a game with us now?

He's an 18 year old who's played about 6 games in the AFL system.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Exactly. Jarrad Waite played his first season entirely in the twos when every single other player on our list got a game. Does that make him a hack?

I actually think what we're currrently doing is protecting the kids from the seniors so that they aren't forced to play before they're ready, unlike clubs like Hawthorn who've been forced to play them. You can't tell me Thurgood and Roughead are ready, or even Franklin really.

geez - i just cant understand this tripe,

lets finish last, last get priority picks, our list is shit, get rid of everyone.

We have seen our list and how it can play.

The Wizzer Cup was not a fluke.

We played Melbourne and West Coat - who both had full teams, who both would have wanted to win, who both are going allright in the proper season.

How we played in the Wizzer was no fluke - we played some great football, this club can play some great football and we have seen it. I will never ever expect anyone saying it was only the wizzer cup - once you cross that line, everyone wants to win, regardless of the game.

2 Weeks ago - Brisbane where finished, they arent now though.

We played crap football - no doubt in that, was terrible to watch, but Richmond are flying at the moment, but before we start talking Richmond up and how good there are going lets wait and see where they finish shall we.

IMO - our lists arent too far apart. Deledio is a talent, but player for a player i reckon you would come pretty close to being a very similar list.

Yet, the sounds of some of you hear you would far prefer being a richmond supporter than a carlton supporter. God knows alot of you act like them when they are losing.

Campbell - Campo - at the end of his career but can still go alright (draw)
Whitnall - Richardson - when both are flying they are unstoppable, when they are struggling they are terrible (draw)
Deluca - Stafford - Stafford is probably a better ruckmen, but up forward i reckon they would draw about even.
Deledio - Walker - Deledio looks good, real good, as does Walker. Time will tell with this (draw)
brown - lappin - both can be very damaging if given room to play (draw)

would love to go through the entire list, but i dont have the time, maybe some of you here can continue the debate.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

I am interested in this comparison with the Dogs and the Tiges. Are we really saying that the lost picks (a priority pick and first two rounds year one, and first two rounds year two- 5 all together) are the difference?

I accept that five young Deludio types would be handy, but is it the only cause? For example, have injuries to Kouta, Fish, Livo, Thornton and others affected our ability to win games, along with some questionable late draft pick ups (late in the draft for a reason?).

I simply pose the question, as we continue to cry poor over the "lost picks", but when will we move on? Do we have to win the flag before we say there - done?

And if the missing 5 are the reason, then Pagan's performances are even more meritorious, and he must be close to losing it.

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"Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I,
I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference."

Robert Frost

The problem is not that we´re playing to our potential, the problem for the last 18 months is that we have been playing ABOVE our potential. Pagan has lifted a bottom 4 list, coached us through to wins that were above our true potential. Awesome you say, isnt that the idea?? Christ no, not in the existing system!! If u cant reach finals then finishing the season at 9th to 12th spot when you´ve got a bottom 4 list is nothing short of disastrous. Maybe we should have kept on Brittain for another few years!

Despite my poll thread, I agree, Scott.

I think everyone is just frustrated with the effort, or lack of, that existed yesterday.

Given the circumstances of our list, most people have come to expect the Carlton of today to be competitive and to have a red hot crack.

Yesterday, none of that was evident.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Fev, Kouta, Campo, Lappin, Stevens, French Whitnall. When they've fired, we've managed to beat the 15th and 16th placed teams by a single goal. When they don't we're shithouse. And how many of them are approaching 30?

I think we are a key backman (besides Livo), a real ruckman and a CHF away from being even remotely competativive against good sides.

We need to forget about the Wizard Cup. Practice games, no matter what you call them, are just that.

We need to find a position for Walker. He spends all his time out there running around after opposition players instead of doing anything remotely damaging .... and he can't kick. We need to find a more attacking role for him, cause at the moment we're turning him into the new Goddard.

We need to stop kidding ourselves by playing guys like prenda and Johnson who can't hit the side of a barn door from 10 metres, no matter how good he is at the stoppages. Bannister can't tag, so if he can't do anything else, why play him?

We need to stop letting teams have loose men in our forward line because we're playing loose men in defence. We need to go man on man from the start of games and if they kick 20 goals cause our defence isn't good enough, then so be it. At least then we might kick a few from one on one contests up forward. We need to bench players like Scotland who are incapable of manning up.

And last but not least, stop drafting "potential". Don't draft any more players who "could be anything". I have come to the conclusion that that just means "has shit disposal". Disposal is killing us. Execution in front of goals is killing us. We were absoloutely spanked in the first quarter but if Whitnall and Waite had converted their 3 straight forward opportunities in the first quarter we would have gone in 4 goals down at quarter time despite how well the Tiges had played. Having an acceptable level of skill by hand and foot on both sides of the body should be our new number one recruiting priority. Not "potential".

The trash heap haaaaaaaaaaaas spoken.

Just showing a bit of honesty