Virgin Blue wrote:
David Parkin once said the "draft is the lifeblood of clubs".
I dont think he said that any time he was at Carlton.
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| Re-generating our list http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18892 |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re-generating our list |
Someone made a comment in the Whitnall Retirement thread, that made me think about how quickly fortunes can change in football, and how Carlton ideally should try to have a strong list every year. So how do we do that? What measures need to be put in place to make sure we are constantly improving the list, to make sure we avoid 'down years' where the list ages and then suddenly needs to be re-built? Is this possible? As much as he annoys the hell out of me, and baring in mind he recently stuffed up their list, I think Sheedy historically has succeeded in constantly re-generating the Essendon* list by constantly introducing fresh young blood. So many teams these days get to a stage where they think they are a couple of mature players away from going the distance. But more times than not this turns out to be fools gold. Is part of the trick then to not throw away early picks for mature talent when you're Premiership window is open but closing? I look at Carlton now and I think in 3 years time we'll be a very strong side, one potentially capable of winning a Premiership. That will be 2010, and Fevola will be on the cusp of retirement with Stevens and Scotland almost certainly gone. And then I think - we need to make sure we are constantly replacing the good players we lose through retirement. I think part of the key is to NEVER trade away ones first round picks. David Parkin once said the "draft is the lifeblood of clubs". As random as he is these days with the stuff that comes out of his mouth, there's no doubt he's on the money with this one. Obviously having a gun recruitment manager is vital. But is there more to it than this and having a rule on one's fist round picks? I just think the smart clubs in the future will be those that constantly re-generate their lists with talent, without having to bottom out for a few years (Port?). Perhaps some clubs have already started doing this? I thought Collingwood for one were very sneaky to bottom out and get Thomas and Pendlebury. Is this the way then, for clubs to bottom out when they don't really need to, to get an injection of top end talent every few years? To keep the list re-freshed with young talent? By the way Mods, I decided to post this in the Carlton section, as opposed to in the Recruitment section, because what I want to see is ways we can keep Carlton strong over time. But please feel free to move this to another section if you have a different take on things. |
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| Author: | bondiblue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:51 pm ] |
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If there is always going to be a cap on the numbers on a list, then the most important thing to do, and most difficult, is to make the hard decisions. I think our problem started when Elliot (still clear in my mind) stated to the media... we don't sack Carlton players; once a Carlton player always a Carlton player; and, we never rebuild...also said players like Kernahan, Bradley ...(older legends) could call their day for retirement. There's the problem. With Whitnall, perhaps some of us were too sentimental when deciding the right time to trade/ retire is. Perhaps we must always be conscious of size, weight, injuries, speed and age all add up to a likely use by date. Nip them just before they start to wilt. Even with our deep list of kids, yeah the ones we consider will grow together, will not all be together for form/ skill/ attitude reasons. We must delist them, or play them a few games before the end of year's draft, in order to get more value from them. Just for arguments sake...kids like Benjamin, Grigg, Austin, Edwards, Bower, Bentick, Blackwell, Jacobs, Hartlett and Betts might not even make the grade and may be discarded before our next flag...that's a fair few. The trick is to decide if they will or wont make it, and when to discard them for the best return. What about average players like Saddo, Wiggo and Banno, when do you discard them? I suppose anytime, because no one else wants them either. So do you play the kids before them to expedite and gauge their talent? I hate this system, because some players make it later than the early developers, and we are forced to force older players into early retirement when they still have a lot to give to the club and the young players. It's a tough decision...it's a tough caper...they're all just cattle as the saying goes. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:14 pm ] |
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bondiblue wrote: If there is always going to be a cap on the numbers on a list, then the most important thing to do, and most difficult, is to make the hard decisions. I think our problem started when Elliot (still clear in my mind) stated to the media... we don't sack Carlton players; once a Carlton player always a Carlton player; and, we never rebuild...also said players like Kernahan, Bradley ...(older legends) could call their day for retirement. There's the problem. With Whitnall, perhaps some of us were too sentimental when deciding the right time to trade/ retire is. Perhaps we must always be conscious of size, weight, injuries, speed and age all add up to a likely use by date. Nip them just before they start to wilt.. I agree totally, although I think some posters might want to keep some sentimentality in the game. But I agree with you. Lance for example probably should have been traded a few years ago when he was worth a first rounder. They are the sort of tough calls clubs need to have the balls to make. bondiblue wrote: Just for arguments sake...kids like Benjamin, Grigg, Austin, Edwards, Bower, Bentick, Blackwell, Jacobs, Hartlett and Betts might not even make the grade and may be discarded before our next flag...that's a fair few. The trick is to decide if they will or wont make it, and when to discard them for the best return. . Problem there is I don't think you'd get much for kids who haven't fired much of a shot. bondiblue wrote: What about average players like Saddo, Wiggo and Banno, when do you discard them?
I think we're an unique case at the moment, because of the way we were mis-managed for so long by Elliot & Co and then the AFL. We are only hanging onto the above types out of necessity. I think you hit it on the head earlier, when you said it is about making hard calls on established players with talent. And it's the same sort of attitude that saw Sydney try and trade Jude Bolton. Not sure what happened there, that was a bit weird how they floated his name so publicly. Either the press got hold of it when it was supposed to stay in-house, or Sydney really mucked up their PR. I mean if we were to try and sell off a player like Scotland now, for a first rounder, surely you'd want to do it on the quiet and not be seen from the outside as being mercenaries. |
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| Author: | AGRO [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re-generating our list |
Virgin Blue wrote: David Parkin once said the "draft is the lifeblood of clubs".
I dont think he said that any time he was at Carlton.
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:25 pm ] |
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No he said it after he left. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:28 pm ] |
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Maybe it's just luck. I mean Westhoff was taken at 71 in the 2006 draft, and who'd have known Rodan would do so well?? |
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| Author: | DownUnderChick [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:32 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: No he said it after he left.
Naturally when he was in a position to help us with that mindset. 
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:32 pm ] |
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Brisbane, Port and Collingwood have done well to sustain their competitiveness through getting some elite young talent. But it remains to be seen if these teams hit rock bottom in 3 or so years, when their stars retire. As much as I hate to say it, I think Collingwood have done the best. They played in Grand Finals not long ago, and yet have a number of good kids coming through : Thomas (Tanked?) Pendlebury (Tanked?) Cloke (Father Son so bit of luck there) Goldsack Clarke (Ireland, showed initiative and took money to get him) Reid (Traded Tarrant to get two early picks, which took gonads) O'Brien + Swan and Johnson who are both still young |
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| Author: | AGRO [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:35 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: Maybe it's just luck.
I mean Westhoff was taken at 71 in the 2006 draft, and who'd have known Rodan would do so well?? Brad Fisher was taken around the same spot in the 2002 National Draft. 
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:36 pm ] |
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Perhaps 2006 will prove to be a bit disappointing for us. I mean that draft was so strong, teams like Port and Geelong scored big time with their first rounders, and yet we had just the one early pick. It's really only this draft that w will jump ahead of some clubs in terms of getting the most out of the off-season. Judd and Kreuzer is a huge off season. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:37 pm ] |
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AGRO wrote: Virgin Blue wrote: Maybe it's just luck. I mean Westhoff was taken at 71 in the 2006 draft, and who'd have known Rodan would do so well?? Brad Fisher was taken around the same spot in the 2002 National Draft. There's luck and then there's LUCK. I mean we needed a Fisher due to where we were at at the time. But Port were a Premiership side, so to land a Westhoff at 71 is gold for them and sucks for teams like us. |
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| Author: | Siegfried [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:58 pm ] |
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It's an interesting discussion. I still think that the whole draft / salary cap world of AFL is so new, that in 10 years time, clubs will be operating very differently to the way they do today, as they learn what is needed and what no longer works. The question is, HOW will things change? And the clubs that work out the answer to that first, will have the advantage (just as the first clubs that worked out that recruiting was so important, and put resources into it (eg WC, with their 4 development coaches), reaped the rewards). One thing I think is for certain, clubs will become more and more ruthless with their lists. What we saw with Sydney this year, putting Jude Bolton on the trade table, the first time I top player at a club, who didn't want to leave, and was still playing good footy, was put up for trade, will become more and more common. It is the same scenario that Carlton potentially had with Fevola, and we chose to keep him, when we could have got excellent trade value for him (and thus allowing the list to be regenerated). Only time will tell whether it was the right decision or not. But that kind of strategy will become more and more common, IMHO. |
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| Author: | Molly [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:03 pm ] |
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Siegfried said: Quote: One thing I think is for certain, clubs will become more and more ruthless with their lists. What we saw with Sydney this year, putting Jude Bolton on the trade table, the first time I top player at a club, who didn't want to leave, and was still playing good footy, was put up for trade, will become more and more common.
Excellent post Siegfried, and I agree wholeheartedly. Until our club demonstrates an ability to sacrifice talent to gain talent (the Thornton trade last year is a perfect example) then I think we are at the mercies of the premiership clock. Regenerating through being prepared to trade key players is gutsy (and won't always work), but it is something that I think will be a key ingredient to any continual (medium-term) form of success. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:13 pm ] |
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Totally agree guys. Not sure if the Thornton case is a prime example (because Hawthorn weren't prepared to part with anything 'really' good), but the principle is there. I think Hawthorn have done well over the years to get rid of players like Thompson and Hay for good picks. I know some will argue these players wanted to leave, but the fact still remains the club got mutliple first round picks for has-beens. Clearly the trend seems to be that big, key position players get the most return. Tarrant can be added to Thompson and Hay. It will be interesting to see what Carlton do in 3-5 years time. Come 2010 our club hopefully will be playing finals and therefore not be privy to top draft picks. Failing us getting lucky with a gun Father/Son (and even then, the rule there has changed), will the club do anything in a few years to ensure they get some top end talent into the list when they otherwise mightn't? Getting back to the key position thing, maybe this is an area where we could get lucky. I think I read somewhere a while back that we have more tall players than any other club. Could it be in 3 years we are trying to trade a Setanta O'hAilpin? Or a Waite? Nobody is off the table, other than perhaps Judd. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:18 pm ] |
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Siegfried wrote: It's an interesting discussion. I still think that the whole draft / salary cap world of AFL is so new, that in 10 years time, clubs will be operating very differently to the way they do today, as they learn what is needed and what no longer works.
The question is, HOW will things change? And the clubs that work out the answer to that first, will have the advantage (just as the first clubs that worked out that recruiting was so important, and put resources into it (eg WC, with their 4 development coaches), reaped the rewards). . Yep, good post. Maybe in 50 years time clubs will be drafting future players before they're even born. 
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:20 pm ] |
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I think the one area some clubs are having success with right now is recruiting from other countries. Obviously Collingwood have done very well with young Clarke, and Setanta looks the goods for us. This is one way clubs can get elite talent outside the conventional national draft. I think it's great we have spoken to 5 young Irish lads, irrespective of whether we have deals with all 5 it['s great to see we are being aggressive and thinking outside the square. |
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| Author: | DownUnderChick [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:26 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: I think the one area some clubs are having success with right now is recruiting from other countries. Obviously Collingwood have done very well with young Clarke, and Setanta looks the goods for us. This is one way clubs can get elite talent outside the conventional national draft. I think it's great we have spoken to 5 young Irish lads, irrespective of whether we have deals with all 5 it['s great to see we are being aggressive and thinking outside the square.
I think the fact that we were one of the first teams of this century to go after the Irish lads so prominently will prove beneficial as I feel that the Irish experiment will dry up once the AFL starts dealing again with the Irish on the International game. |
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| Author: | Donstuie [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:43 pm ] |
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THERE IS NO GENE FOR THE BOX SEAT |
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| Author: | Lace Out [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:44 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: Siegfried wrote: It's an interesting discussion. I still think that the whole draft / salary cap world of AFL is so new, that in 10 years time, clubs will be operating very differently to the way they do today, as they learn what is needed and what no longer works. The question is, HOW will things change? And the clubs that work out the answer to that first, will have the advantage (just as the first clubs that worked out that recruiting was so important, and put resources into it (eg WC, with their 4 development coaches), reaped the rewards). . Yep, good post. Maybe in 50 years time clubs will be drafting future players before they're even born. What a great film that is. |
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| Author: | sstormin123 [ Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:31 pm ] |
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Firearm Fevs wrote: Virgin Blue wrote: Siegfried wrote: It's an interesting discussion. I still think that the whole draft / salary cap world of AFL is so new, that in 10 years time, clubs will be operating very differently to the way they do today, as they learn what is needed and what no longer works. The question is, HOW will things change? And the clubs that work out the answer to that first, will have the advantage (just as the first clubs that worked out that recruiting was so important, and put resources into it (eg WC, with their 4 development coaches), reaped the rewards). . Yep, good post. Maybe in 50 years time clubs will be drafting future players before they're even born. What a great film that is. i actually cannot think of a worse movie.....perhaps the 5th American pie.....................maybe |
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