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| Happell on Kouta and Pagan http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18804 |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Happell on Kouta and Pagan |
Happell writes in crikey.com : http://www.crikey.com.au/Media-Arts-and ... fault.html Interesting read, but terribly selective in my view. I don't doubt Kouta was a bit opportunistic with his comments, but with the same token he does have a right to write a book and make as much money as possible for his family (failing one breaking the law, no man should be told to not do that), and Pagan's unparalleled tough approach was always going to be a major focus of the book (from what I have heard from people I know who are connected to the club, 99% of the players hate Pagan - that is pretty extreme you've got to admit). If Kouta is guilty of anything, it is his timing. But I'd argue Pagan has been far, far more gulity of far, far greater sins over the past 5 years, and it's funny how Denis accepts his sacking (which by implication means he accepts that he didn't do much of a job), and yet is happy to be paid out in full for the remainder of 2007 + 2008. I don't think Kouta is the only little piggy in all of this. Charles Happell wonders why Carrazzo etc haven't come out and said they hate Pagan too. That's a pretty naive thing to say, I mean the whole footy world was shocked Kouta did it - it is pretty un-Australian to come public on this sort of thing, so it stands to reason most other players (esp those still at Carlton) will not be as liberal with their opinions as Kouta has been. Plus, why would current day players want to ruin their rep, when their careers are not yet over and they could yet be coached by a new coach one day? And in any event, I would argue most of these players' development has little to do with Pagan, and more to do with the assistant coaches and merely getting games under their belts (Pagan after all has gone on record saying players naturally get better when they get 50-70 games experience). And I heard Andrew Walker's father said that upon being asked by his father why his form had picked up in 2007, Andrew said "No real reason, just got more game time". So it's not like Denis has waved his magic wand and turned Andrew Walker into a good player. It's worth remembering that at no point has Kouta actually said that all of Carlton's woes are Denis' fault. That perspective is merely spin generated by the football media and Pagan defenders alike. All Kouta has said (suspicious timing aside) is that Denis is the nastiest coach going around and his gameplan was not suitable to the players he had at his disposal (and I think most fans in the know accept these two things to be true). It's funny to hear Denis say that the long-direct game plan was used by three of this year's top 4 sides. This is true, however the anti-Paganites have always argued that Denis' chief strategic fault is his game plan is unsuitable for his players. While he did change the game plan for a brief period in 2006 to that of a short-kicking/possession game style, don't you think it's strange that this game plan was unsuccessful under Pagan but largely successful under Ratten (Carlton might have lost all their games under Ratten this year, but everyone knows the club tanked and the team actually played very, very competitive football during this period). Another way to tell this story is to suggest that Wayne Brittain, prior to his final year when the Blues won the spoon after having suffered the worst run of injuries in the club's career, had actually got the Blues to the finals in his penultimate year at Carlton, and got very disciplined efforts from the club's seasoned veterans (Bradley, the quintessential outside player actually played as a tagger in his final year - now that's what I call respecting one's coach). Furthermore, the following players from the largely successful Brittain era - Kouta, Camporeale, Allan, Beaumont, among others via private complaints - have all expressed their deep resentment for the way Denis Pagan came and changed everything at Carlton and treated the players like cattle. Again I stress that the team was actually a Finals team, it's just that in Brittain's final year nearly half the list was injured, just like Melbourne in 2007. Pagan and Carlton we're right for each other in the 60s, and they're not right for each other now. But at least Pagan got about $3-4mill out of it, whereas Carlton got nothing (although we did get a raft of early picks, so I suppose we should thank Denis for that). BTW have no problem with criticism being directed at Kernahan, but the line "no-one else at Carlton has copped a scratch" seems a bit odd given the Smorgan board was sacked, and Barry Mitchell has been shown the door, as has prior CEO Michael Malouf. Pagan inherited an ageing but still very capable list, but he rubbed them up the wrong way (great man management skills there Denis, I mean did you have to be a complete tyrant?) and then decided to clean the place out. Then he made the AFL's youngest list play a game plan that is totally not suited to them (great strategic thinking there Denis, I mean unlike in the nineties teams actually flood back these days, and young legs can't deal with the hard running that a long/direct game plan requires). The proof is in the pudding - Brett Ratten got very, very competitive performances from the same list Pagan had at his disposal, only the difference was Ratten knows how the modern game works and doesn't treat his players with complete and utter contempt. Happell's article is terribly selective in it's content, and seems to be based on hearsay rather than an actual (personal) deep understanding of how Carlton have performed over the past 5-7 years. I know about a dozen people who are connected to the club, and all of them have said the same thing, that the way Pagan has treated his players has been absolutely atrocious (hell even Tony Liberatore, Carlton's recent assistant coach hated Denis, from what I was told). Times have changed both in terms of game plans and also the way you treat people. Remember, it is now 15 years since Pagan took over the young North side and built a Premiership team. That's a long time ago. It's almost a decade since his last Premiership. |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:20 am ] |
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Apart from dial a quoting ... Kouta has milked the Pagan cash cow for all its worth. What he has done is used Pagan to cash in on publicity because he knows we have been down for a long time and are on the rise.. Perfect time to point at a scapegoat. Kouta wants Lance at the club. Kouta thinks Stevo should be captain even though it will be Judd more likely than not... and he knows it!!.. Kouta has not spoken aboutr either Elliots role or Allisons role in bringing the club to its knees. Didnt some of these blokes come out and publicly back Denis a year ago??? They should have either remained quiet back then.. or remained quiet today... WEAK! |
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| Author: | Headplant [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:23 am ] |
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There is long kicking, and then there is long kicking. What percentage of Geelong's long kicks were bombs to a 3 on 1 contest? Denis' brand of player development saw players in their first game get dragged at their first skill error ... e.g. Jesse Smith after about 2 minutes at the dome vs Richmond. His training involved pulling players up and ranting at them when they did not kick long at the first instance ... in his first 2 years, take the mark, 1 handball then kick long. Kout has spoken the truth as he sees it .... and a lot of us see it a lot differently. I'm not impressed that one guy thinks it OK that he was on a contract to chew up 15% of the TPP when we were $1.2M over the cap. |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:28 am ] |
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Headplant wrote: There is long kicking, and then there is long kicking. What percentage of Geelong's long kicks were bombs to a 3 on 1 contest?
Geelong get numbers to the ball. We had a bunch of lazy senior footballers... who wouldnt/couldnt get to the contests. Lance Kouta Campo Houla Throw in Fev when he didnt feel like it.... That sets the tone..... I reckon Pagan was a shithouse coach and he was not in tune with the moderna game... But we had a bunch of players that set the tone for the others that were mentaly weAK.. and believed they didnt have to come out of their comfort zone.. even though they were being paid a princely sum.. and that the club somehow owed them.... I have no doubt Denis would be coaching a desperate side like North still competitively even today.... |
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| Author: | The Duke [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:29 am ] |
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That about sums it up, people. Who'd of thought a journo could get it so right. |
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| Author: | Headplant [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:34 am ] |
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Agree with that Synbad ... although not sure these days how long desperate players would remain committed under that style of player management and restricted vision ... it seemed some North players were happy when he left there. |
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| Author: | LFTWNG11 [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 am ] |
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is that Happell bloke a Collingwood supporter... sounds like it. When did Stevens sulk when lance got the job? I thought Nick responded by playing even better football after Lance was given the captaincy (wrongly). maybe Happell is related to Carey or something. |
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| Author: | Steve_C7 [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:16 pm ] |
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Synbad wrote: We had a bunch of lazy senior footballers... who wouldnt/couldnt get to the contests. Lance Kouta Campo Houla Throw in Fev when he didnt feel like it.... That sets the tone..... Weren't these the same players that made the Grand Final inn 99, finals 2000 etc. So what changed between 2000 and 2006 that set the tone so poorly? Were they lazy to fight tooth and nail against the best team in the comp in 99 to get t the big one? Synbad, you have the same opinion as Pagan that the players must repect the coach and gut bust run for him irrespective of how they are treated. My Father taught me that Respect is to be given AND recieved that was clearly not the case with Pagan. For a player to perform at their peak they need to be in good condition, physically, metally and emotionally. Do I need to explain further why we performed so poorly. BTW this applies to all facets of life, you only need to see the performance of a work colleague who is having trouble at home to see the effect that poor emotional state has on performance |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:26 pm ] |
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Steve_C7 wrote: Synbad wrote: We had a bunch of lazy senior footballers... who wouldnt/couldnt get to the contests. Lance Kouta Campo Houla Throw in Fev when he didnt feel like it.... That sets the tone..... Weren't these the same players that made the Grand Final inn 99, finals 2000 etc. So what changed between 2000 and 2006 that set the tone so poorly? Were they lazy to fight tooth and nail against the best team in the comp in 99 to get t the big one? Synbad, you have the same opinion as Pagan that the players must repect the coach and gut bust run for him irrespective of how they are treated. My Father taught me that Respect is to be given AND recieved that was clearly not the case with Pagan. For a player to perform at their peak they need to be in good condition, physically, metally and emotionally. Do I need to explain further why we performed so poorly. BTW this applies to all facets of life, you only need to see the performance of a work colleague who is having trouble at home to see the effect that poor emotional state has on performance Thats an unbelievable argument. If they were good enough to play in the finals 7 years ago.. and Denis was good wough tpo coach a flag during that time.. what has changed?? ALOT!!! The world has changed.. They get paid plenty to perform for us not for themselves...!!! If it wernt for the supporters and the members they would be working on oil rigs or something. Their whole existance as sportsmen materialises cos there are people prepared to pay for the pleasure of watching them.... They owed it to us.. or they get out of that as their chosen profession!!! You cannot have your cake and eat it.. If you dont like your job .. get out!!.. do not sign added contracts... Thats all there is.... They cheated alot of people.... not just Denis.... |
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| Author: | Donstuie [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:37 pm ] |
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| Author: | sideshow bob [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:42 pm ] |
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nice and succinct Donstuie 
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:46 pm ] |
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Synbad wrote: Kouta has milked the Pagan cash cow for all its worth. What he has done is used Pagan to cash in on publicity because he knows we have been down for a long time and are on the rise.. Perfect time to point at a scapegoat. Pagan deserves the public humiliation. From what I have been told from very good sources, Pagan was the worst of tyrants. And Kouta has every right to milk whatever he wants to provide for his family. Failing committing a serious crime, I would never tell any man to not make as much money for his family as possible. Kouta isn't a club employee anymore. And if what he has done is so bad, then why are the club letting him sign autographs at the club? Synbad wrote: Kouta wants Lance at the club. Kouta thinks Stevo should be captain even though it will be Judd more likely than not... and he knows it!!.. I think the club should go Stevens and Judd as joint Captains, but that's just me. I think the other option would be Stevens as captain and in 3 years when he retires Judd gets it. Stevens might have made a few mistakes over the journey at Carlton, but I would guess the majority of players would rather him get a go as he's been around a while, than give it to a total newcomer who hasn't got any runs on the board at Carlton. But if Judd got the job I wouldn't have a problem as there are pretty darn good arguments for him getting it too. But the point is, I can see good arguments for Stevens getting it too. As for Lance, well I am pretty sure I read Kouta saying he thinks Lance could have done more. I am glad to see the back of Lance, but it's not like Kouta hasn't criticised Lance cause he has. Synbad wrote: Kouta has not spoken aboutr either Elliots role or Allisons role in bringing the club to its knees. Elliot ruined the club, but only after he delivered us a Premiership in the 90s. Or would you rather take that one back? And Kouta was worth every bit of that $1Mill/year contract he was put on, and Allison merely did his job representing his client, and the club were stupid enough to not have an injury clause in the contract. Maybe you should point your fury at the club's administration. Every man has a right to make big bucks and a deal is a deal. What did you expect? That Kouta would voluntarily go from $1Mill/year to $600k/year? You're dreaming. Synbad wrote: Didnt some of these blokes come out and publicly back Denis a year ago???
They should have either remained quiet back then.. or remained quiet today... WEAK! Why? That horrible coach deserves the hammering he has got the last week or so. |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:52 pm ] |
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Well if you think all of the sins of our past are ok.. we deserve everything and all the misery we copped... Elliot brought Pagan to the club..... Koutas manager killed the club off.. cos Elliot was a flower.. And it cpost us 10 years!!! Not 5... |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:03 pm ] |
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Synbad wrote: Koutas manager killed the club off.. cos Elliot was a flower.. Kouta's manager did a pretty good job for his client. That's his job. I don't like it how manager's score points through the media, as Kouta's manager did, but at the end of the day he was just representing his client and his client was initially signed up on a figure that correlated with his worth as a footballer. It's the administration's fault for not having a get out clause. Look maybe you're right, maybe Kouta was selective in what he wrote in his book, but even still, I don't have a problem with him attacking Pagan cause the old prick deserves every bit of public condemnation he gets. Synbad wrote: Elliot brought Pagan to the club.....
. In fairness though, I think 99% of Carlton fans were thrilled we got Pagan. Little did we know though right?! |
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| Author: | buzzaaaah [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:08 pm ] |
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What changed from 1999-2000 till 2003? SOS retired. |
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| Author: | sideshow bob [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:12 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: In fairness though, I think 99% of Carlton fans were thrilled we got Pagan. Little did we know though right?!
yep, at the time i was thrilled. how soon that faded. similar to voting for Hawke... and i'm a labor voter
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:14 pm ] |
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He was such a huge loss, and we still haven't replaced him. Elite key defenders are so hard to find. How many can you name who have played in the last 7 years or so? Silvagni, Fletcher, Michael, Scarlett, Rutten, that's about it. Clement was good but probably would struggle on a J.Brown type. Having a gun defender is so important because it means you don't have to drop extra players back to cut off forward passes or to double team. Fingers crossed Setanta can become an excellent defender. |
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| Author: | Virgin Blue [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:20 pm ] |
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Is it just me or does Fitzpatrick look like Hitler ? |
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| Author: | sideshow bob [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:25 pm ] |
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Virgin Blue wrote: Is it just me or does Fitzpatrick look like Hitler ?
wash your mouth VB
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| Author: | Steve_C7 [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:38 pm ] |
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Synbad wrote: If they were good enough to play in the finals 7 years ago.. and Denis was good wough tpo coach a flag during that time.. what has changed?? Who said anything about 7 years? Pagan had only 1 year where we finished 10th, the rest was complete and utter failure. All the mature players have gone backwards since Pagan came and the only one to improve was Fev, who Brittan had more to do with his improvement than Pagan. So again in 2 years whats changed http://footyforecaster.com/graph?league ... ontsize=12 This should make it clearer for you |
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