TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Shifting blame Blues' biggest flaw!

I must say i find these takes on life interesting.

Pagan was given enourmous leeway by the press during his tenure. No blame laid at his feet over the foreign legion (imposed upon him by the board) or the lack of development of our youngsters, or the persistant rumours of dissatisfaction amongst the players.

We're at the beginning of our journey back and not much (bar a run of incredibly bad luck) will stop us.

Storm in tea cup. Some of you guys fire up way too easily. :lol:

John Kosmina (Sydney FC coach) was asked this morning how he deals with getting messages to the players when he is banished to the stands, and he replied that basically there is not a lot he can do. A coach's role is to prepare them for a game, once they are out there the players should be professional enough to know what to do . He said players rarely listen during a game anyway, too much adrenaline pumping!

I believe that match was a clear indication, if not PERFECT evidence, as to just how much influence a coach has or can have on Match Day.

Author:	BrizzyBlue [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Shifting blame Blues' biggest flaw!
Or so says Trevor Grant: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 22,00.html

Author:	dane [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:47 am ]
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Someone should push him down some stairs

Author:	Kaptain Kouta [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:23 am ]
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Another HUN piece written from scraps from here and stuff gleaned from real journalists. Pile of shite.

Author:	Buzza4 [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:07 am ]
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i blame him. let's get 'im!

Author:	Phoenix [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:42 am ]
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just like Journo's who blame "sub-editors" when they get their facts wrong

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Shifting blame Blues' biggest flaw! http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18782	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Mil Hanna [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:27 am ]
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Keep 'em coming I say!!!! Seriously guys, the more negative articles that I read about the Blues, the more I am going to laugh when we start performing on the field and these "journos" (I use that term loosely) start waffling on about how great a decision it was to appoint Ratten, or that the players have finally come of age, or (most likely) that Judd has made all the difference to the team etc. Then they will say that they called it way back when???? The same "journos" that have been sticking the boots into us about Lance's sacking and Kouta's tell-all will be claiming these issues as "things that had to happen for Carlton to move forward" (or "masterstrokes" ) when we start our march up the ladder in 2008. Let these people have their fun now, it's the last chance they're going to get for a while, (don't they know it) and it will be all the more entertaining when they are forced to eat their own words.

Author:	camel [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:43 am ]
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Storm in tea cup. Some of you guys fire up way too easily.

Author:	bluehammer [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:51 am ]
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feeeeeeeeeeeeear

Author:	The Vet [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:59 am ]
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I must say i find these takes on life interesting. Pagan was given enourmous leeway by the press during his tenure. No blame laid at his feet over the foreign legion (imposed upon him by the board) or the lack of development of our youngsters, or the persistant rumours of dissatisfaction amongst the players. I accept that Pago Pago came to Carlton expecting something different to what he got at north, but the fact is he got pretty much the same - a club hamstrung by resource problems. He didn't deal with it very well at all. The fact that someone is now speaking about how he dealt with it is important as part of our history, and in order to finally rule a line under that era. (I accept, generally, that dirty linen ought be kept inhouse) That's what these cretins seem to be missing. the book wasn't written for them. It was written for us. These buggers seem to be looking for what's missing in the book, not what is in it. Sure, we know that the players didnt perform. That much is obvious. What isn't obvious, is how much the coach contributed to that - a matter that Kouta's book goes some way to discussing. Reminds me of that line - those that can, do. Those that can't, become critics. Line 'em up - Caro, Trevor, etc. maybe this is just payback for them getting it wrong about judd?

Author:	AGRO [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:07 am ]
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The Vet wrote: I must say i find these takes on life interesting. Pagan was given enourmous leeway by the press during his tenure. No blame laid at his feet over the foreign legion (imposed upon him by the board) or the lack of development of our youngsters, or the persistant rumours of dissatisfaction amongst the players. Not bad on everything else Vet, but the Board did not impose the foreign legion on Pagan in 2003 - it was definitely the other way around.

Author:	Dominator_7 [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:22 am ]
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The same people that are still bagging us wrote 'why would Judd want to go to Carlton ?' etc.. Remember Collingwood, then Melbourne, and then Richmond were in the box seat to get Judd... These journos are just getting their kicks while they can, as deep down they know that our 'rabble' days are behind us...

Author:	JohnM [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:33 am ]
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Most non-Carlton people don't want to see a successful Carlton. Trev's never liked us, so he'd probably enjoy sinking the boots in. Having said that, it doesn't matter if a guy like Trev paraphrases Caro or other journo's in yet another vaguely negative article on the blues. We're at the beginning of our journey back and not much (bar a run of incredibly bad luck) will stop us.

Author:	AGRO [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:38 am ]
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JohnM wrote: We're at the beginning of our journey back and not much (bar a run of incredibly bad luck) will stop us. I think we have had our incredible run of back luck.

Author:	bondiblue [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:41 am ]
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We're on our way From Misery to happiness today!!

Author:	ryan2000 [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:16 am ]
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WOW! How does Pagan escape so much? Seriously, he's like teflon? Sure, the players must AND HAVE taken fair brunt of the blame, but jesus how much evidence do you need to see that Pagan had clearly past his use-by date. It's funny cause North supporters knew this even before he left the club! Ya'll must get sick of me coming on here and baging the likes of Pagan whilst sticking up for the players, but the only reason i do so is because knobs like Trevor Grant, Kevin Bartlett, Patrick Smith, Grant Thomas, Wayne Carey (and others) keep coming up with the same old crap and i will argue with the all utill i'm out of breath! I haven't read Kouta's book yet, but it seems to me like far to many people are starting to take one tiny exceprt that Kouta wrote about his feelings on Denis as a coach and has considered it as the majority of the book itself. Yes, the players need to take some of the blame............. i'll say that again................why, because as much as i dislike Denis, i have never once layed 100% of the blame on his shoulders. To do so would be dumb. Riddle-me-this then genius....... Lance is in a bar with 3 of our youngest and newest recruits WAY past the designated curfue time and trouble erupts under his guidence. What do you do? Why you make him the @#$%&! captain of course......... but when he fails to show any leadership you lay the blame squarlly on him for the kids having nobody to look to for match-day confidence. You'd NEVER blame yourself for picking such an incompitent and unfit Captain to begin with would you? - No, course you wouldn't.............your a two time premiership winning coach! That's what you are! It's players like Ackland, Lance, Davies,..............ahh bugger it, i could go on all day but we don't need to, we all know who they are (were). My point is that sure, we had close to an entire list of players that needed to pull their heads in. Few did, most didn't. Hell even Nick Stevens needed to pull his head in and now he's an odd's on favourite for the captaincy! I wonder if Nick would ever have been that lazy player he was in 06' under the guidance of a Paul Roos. Or if Lance would have turned up to training overweight for the umpteenth bloody time under a Leigh Mathews. The coach does seem to bare the brunt of the supporters anger these days and most times is the one to pay for a poor season but it is still a very important role of the coach to get these boys into order and, quite simply, Pagan failed to do that. These so-called journo's (Tevor Grant, Patrick Smith) and 'media-experts' (Kevin Bartlett & Wayne Carey) fail to see that. They see 2 premierships from the team of the 90's. That's all. I'd like to see em one day comment on Pagan's use of the Kids. Perhaps his inspirational game-plan. His Forward line tactics? or his constant flooding techniques maybe? Better still, i'd like to actually one day see ANY OF THEM state their argument as to WHY Denis was a good coach? Or are they just to content to throw critisism at the players? Perhaps it's easier to write? I kinda feel bad that we did get Judd this year. Because now we are gonna play some entertaining footy that actually suits our players we are only but assured of racking up more wins than Pagan ever did............however now every old-fart who is in desperate need of a slap to the head to remind them what decade we're in will have the excuse "Well, Pagan never had Judd"......................... Please Spare me. So yes, Trevor, your right...........The players have maybe shifted the blame a little. But i think they are sick and tired of wearing it all from critics like yourself who fail to see a bigger side of the picture. NOTE ON CAMPO, (for those who want to look away) This time last year i made a post thank Denis for taking the time to phone me after i wrote him a letter expressing my dissapointment in the way he is leading this club and the players. One perticular point i brought up was players such as Thornton and Russell wanting to leave. I even brought up Campo. Now i don't want to dive into the conversation to much because i will still show respect for Denis to actually phone me (which he was under no obligation to do) but the story i got from Denis regarding Campo ... well, it now seems like bullshit after reading Campo's article in the HUN over the weekend. The reasoning of Campo's departure that i was given might not have been true and if that is the case, i'm a little offended to be honest. I'll leave that one there. Campo, Matty Allan, Kouta, a few others,.............Carlton greats who have all expressed that they had problems with Denis that they tried but failed to resolve. I know who's side i'd be taking. Anyway, in summary, i'd like to ask people such as Trevor Grant, Patrick Smith, his bum-chum Kevin Bartlett, Wayne Carey, Grant Thomas, Andrew Demetirou (and a few others) to have a good hard look in their own backyaeds cause they have all the characteristics that Pagan did..................... stubborn, out-of-touch, short on supporters, not to many recent wins and FAR too many big losses, and finally...........CLEARLY past their use-by date. The sooner the likes of these people are out of reach of this game, the better of we all will be REGARDLESS of which club we support. (EDIT) Sorry.....................one more thing.................. If Denis was so @#$%&! good and it was all the players fault.................... then why is Denis still out of a job?

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Author:	Taff [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:41 am ]
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Not much there to worry about. It's not as if anything there is groundbreaking in the article. Only on field success will shut them all up.

Author:	Mrs Caz [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:02 am ]
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The boycamel wrote: Quote: Storm in tea cup. Some of you guys fire up way too easily. Spot on! Gee i don't know....I think the article is superfluous (others have covered the same theme this week) but really he speaks some truths there. Regardless of whether Pagan was inflexible or not, the players clearly could have put in better efforts as a team a number of times over the last few years. Whatever happened to pride in your own performances? John Kosmina (Sydney FC coach) was asked this morning how he deals with getting messages to the players when he is banished to the stands, and he replied that basically there is not a lot he can do. A coach's role is to prepare them for a game, once they are out there the players should be professional enough to know what to do . He said players rarely listen during a game anyway, too much adrenaline pumping! And Grant mentions about the difficult task as a young rookie coach that Ratten will face in achieving a line between love and respect. Well that's true. I hope he finds that balance early on.

Author:	ryan2000 [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:12 am ]
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Mrs Caz wrote: John Kosmina (Sydney FC coach) was asked this morning how he deals with getting messages to the players when he is banished to the stands, and he replied that basically there is not a lot he can do. A coach's role is to prepare them for a game, once they are out there the players should be professional enough to know what to do . He said players rarely listen during a game anyway, too much adrenaline pumping! Haha.........yeah. He also said that the reason they chose him is because he has a level head and can bring a sense of "Calm" to the club......... hahahahah...............oh boy..........(wipes tear from eye)........ohhhh that was a good one. But it's interesting that you brought up Kosmina. He was clearly responsible for Adelaide's inspid performance in last years Grand Final. Both him and Aloisi. The players lost faith, confidence, looked lost and confused and by half-time they just looked like they didn't care! They looked even less interested AFTER half time! 2 weeks before, they loose 1-0 to Victory ONLY JUST thanks to a Robinson goal with mere seconds to go. 2 weeks later, after Kosmina acts like a spoilt 2 year old in the prelim and is banished to the stands for the GF, they go down in spectacular style thanks to a Victory team fully ready to pounce on Adelaide and their players at the first sign of trouble!...........which came very early on in that match! I believe that match was a clear indication, if not PERFECT evidence, as to just how much influence a coach has or can have on Match Day.

Author:	AIRCAV [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:16 am ]
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agreed Mrs Caz and camelboy. The article IS relevant. We need to make sure we don't go back to the old dark days when the players run the club and this article points out those dangers. Kouta's comments indicate a mind set that we need to be very wary off. Sure have an opinion about the coach. But that SHOULDN'T be the reason for some of the performances.

Author:	Mrs Caz [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:16 am ]
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ryan2000 wrote: I believe that match was a clear indication, if not PERFECT evidence, as to just how much influence a coach has or can have on Match Day. I could argue that it shows how p155weak the players were. PRIDE! I want our players to exude that, regardless of what is happening off-field.