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Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)
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Author:  Koutamagic [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)
check this out. Talk about ripping into his former coach and leading a revolt! Never saw this coming from Kouta.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 22,00.html

Must say, quite interesting what had happened in the background that led to that near sacking of Pagan back in 2006.
Author:  koutahootarootafides [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kouta Blast Pagan
Koutamagic wrote:
check this out. Talk about ripping into his former coach and leading a revolt! Never saw this coming from Kouta.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 22,00.html

Must say, quite interesting what had happened in the background that led to that near sacking of Pagan back in 2006.


Go Kouta!!

I was interested to see Stevo named too.

His game plan did suck, but we have been over that a million times.
Author:  Jarusa [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:39 am ]
Post subject: 
In my eyes a pretty sad tale of mysfunction from many parts of the club.

The players thought they had more power than they should.

The football department thought they should ave more powert than tnhey should.

The admin do not know what the @#$%&! is going on.

... and the supporters are too [REDACTED] in the head to do anything.

No wonder it was a @#$%&! disaster!!!
Author:  Kouta [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:49 am ]
Post subject: 
We've all read the juicy bits, so we don't need to buy the book.
Author:  DenimUndies [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:57 am ]
Post subject: 
The detailed revelations although damning for Pagan help the club AND SUPPORTERS put the past behind
Author:  fjanyc [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Jars, it's a fair enough comment to say that the players thought they had more power than they should, but at the end of the day if everything is going south and the coach has lost the players (for obvious reasons), what should they do -- sit in silence. It is a sorry tale indeed but at least their actions may have been the impetus to a cleanout. The management style of denegrating subordinates to make a point is way outdated and even though it is a tough read, it is pretty hard to disagree with anything Kouta said.
Author:  hustla [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:33 am ]
Post subject: 
You could see that the players didn't want to play for him. He was a 1 man pony with Carey. Kick it to Carey. That was his only gameplan.
Author:  nytdog [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Jarusa wrote:
In my eyes a pretty sad tale of mysfunction from many parts of the club.

The players thought they had more power than they should.

The football department thought they should ave more powert than tnhey should.

The admin do not know what the flower is going on.

... and the supporters are too flower in the head to do anything.

No wonder it was a flower disaster!!!


IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.
Author:  KoRn [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:36 am ]
Post subject: 
wow go kouta!
after reading this I am even more looking forward to a new season when every player is happy!
Author:  TheGame [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Wait for Carey's response
Author:  Blue Vain [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:30 am ]
Post subject: 
nytdog wrote:
IMHO, If the players have the right focus, then empowering players (just like empowering employees in business) is the best way to suceed. Football is a people business. The players are the product. If you don't give them power or a say in what happens then you have no hope of suceeding. 1995 was a great (and first real) example of the players leading themselves to a premiership. The coach needs to be make a decision on which players have the ability, but once the players are selected they should be given input into their own strengths, weaknesses, best positions, game plans, etc. And the best coaches are able to manage and faciliate that input and combine it with the coaches and MCs views. Obviously one man has to have final say (the coach), but the players need to feel that their views are considered. Pagan didn't consider anything but his own ego.


Yep.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.
Author:  Humpers [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Very interesting read.
Author:  79Vintage [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:20 am ]
Post subject: 
No one is bigger than the club, but put a pen in Kouta's hand and he obviously thinks he is. The past is the past and a former captain in Kouta should let sleeping dogs lie and keep his silence. As a club in all ways we've moved on from the Pagan era, but Kouta has to drag us back into it, in the limelight of the football media. Kouta, if you've got something to get off your chest about Pagan, get yourself a pseudonym on Talking Carlton and vent your spleen, while keeping your identity as a former captain of the club secret, rather than doing it in public whilst earning a dollar.

You've really put yourself before the club in this instance Kouta.

Get your hand off your souvalaki :!: :evil:
Author:  The Vet [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 
loved this:

Quote:
In 2006, at a press conference before my 250th game, I was asked who I rated as my most influential coach. I volunteered Wayne Brittain's name and the story was reported. Soon after, I got a phone call from Denis," he said.

" 'Have I done something wrong to you son?', Pagan asked.

"I told him that I didn't mean to offend him but that was how I honestly felt. And then I thought, 'If they'd asked him to name the best five players he's coached, then I definitely wouldn't be in there, because I never played my best footy under him.


shows that not only did the players have no respect for him, but his response simply shows that he didnt get it!

outdated, eh?

more like prehistoric.

So much stuff in there makes sense - the focus on the pre-season, the fact that it looked like the players weren't playing for him ('cause they weren't), and the balls up under consecutive administrations (Collo for extending him and Smorgan for failing to get rid of him).

Well, me thinks we can improve dramaticallty this year :-D :-D
Author:  kwtf_ [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:35 am ]
Post subject: 
79Vintage wrote:
No one is bigger than the club, but put a pen in Kouta's hand and he obviously thinks he is. The past is the past and a former captain in Kouta should let sleeping dogs lie and keep his silence. As a club in all ways we've moved on from the Pagan era, but Kouta has to drag us back into it, in the limelight of the football media. Kouta, if you've got something to get off your chest about Pagan, get yourself a pseudonym on Talking Carlton and vent your spleen, while keeping your identity as a former captain of the club secret, rather than doing it in public whilst earning a dollar.

You've really put yourself before the club in this instance Kouta.

Get your hand off your souvalaki :!: :evil:


He hasn't dragged us back by writing this.

If anything he's put it out there to set the past, with all its rumour and inneundo, straight and emphasize the direct Carlton is heading now.

I would have loved Kouta to play on another year because it is sad that Pagan categorically ruined the last years of his career.
Author:  Wolfe [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Anybody know who the Ex - Player who came on SEN was. He left the club 2 years after Pagan came on board but basically backed up Koutas comments.
And he backed up what a lot of people thought when Ratten / Hickmont and another senior player all left at the same time 12 months after Pagan was appointed.
Author:  Cazzesman [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:45 am ]
Post subject: 
79Vintage wrote:
No one is bigger than the club, but put a pen in Kouta's hand and he obviously thinks he is. The past is the past and a former captain in Kouta should let sleeping dogs lie and keep his silence. As a club in all ways we've moved on from the Pagan era, but Kouta has to drag us back into it, in the limelight of the football media. Kouta, if you've got something to get off your chest about Pagan, get yourself a pseudonym on Talking Carlton and vent your spleen, while keeping your identity as a former captain of the club secret, rather than doing it in public whilst earning a dollar.

You've really put yourself before the club in this instance Kouta.

Get your hand off your souvalaki :!: :evil:


What 79 said. Airing the dirty laundry does no good to anyone, except maybe the book seller...........funny about that. :roll:

Regards Cazzesman
Author:  JohnM [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:49 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't have a problem with anything Kouta wrote. I suppose the question is whether he should write it.

Personally, I think that this puts an end to all the speculation about Pagan and Carlton. It'll make for a few nasty headlines and a bit of foaming-at-the-mouth talkback radio, but I think it's a punctuation mark and lets us all move on.

Why is it that club 'insiders' and people who know people who know people can be aware of the real story, but supporters must be kept in the dark on things like this? Sure, Kouta's making some headlines and will sell some books, but I believe this is something the supporters need to know.

No need to whisper innuendo any more. Now the entire football public knows what happended these last 5 years. It feels cleansing.

Right. Now onto the next 5 years.
Author:  blue4 [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:50 am ]
Post subject: 
he is pumping ratts tyres...
Author:  1979 Norm Smith medal [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:01 am ]
Post subject: 
For all of Pagan's errors - and he had quite a few of them - starting at the top of his list was his reliance on Whitnall - the fact is that he did lead us to two pre-season premierships.

Those cups are in the trophy cabinet and for many people here they mean nothing - but to me they kept my Carlton heart beating.

They were a waterhole in an otherwise depressing desert.
For those flags I am grateful.
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