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Who will be our key defender?
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Author:  Barack Obama [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Who will be our key defender?
If the rumours are true, seems like we will nab both Judd and Kreuzer. Hence the only thing really missing from our side is going to be a big, key defender that can play on forwards like Riewoldt, Jonathan Brown, etc. Do you think we have such a defender already on the list (possibly Austin?), or will we need to try and draft or trade for one?
Author:  Humpers [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm pinning my hopes on either Hartlett, Setanta or Austin.
Author:  blueboysean [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Humpers wrote:
I'm pinning my hopes on either Hartlett, Setanta or Austin.


For those big guys,yep.

Jamo is the most promising of all I reckon (bar Setanta overall) so far. He seems a tad undersized for players of the Hall and Gehrig ilk, but I reckon he could take Riewoldt, Lloyd and smaller players.
Author:  cj69 [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think we are pretty well suited. With Judd and Stevens back and another year in Murphy and Gibbs it will take a lot of pressure off our defence.

Also there are not that many Gorilla's playing anymore. If we come up against a J. Brown, Setanta has shown he can match it with him.

We also have flexibility depending upon the opposition in Jamison, Thornton, Austin & Bower. Waite can always go back if necessary.

I also think Walker can play a key role in this area playing on guys like Riewolt etc and providing an attacking option. Bannister can even play a negating role well. Add that to Anderson, Scotland, Grigg and with some our our new gun midfield running out of their in waves I reckon we look pretty good.
Author:  Melvey [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
i think a bigger issue is in our midfield, we dont have a tagger like a baker, ling, kirk and Cornes

the last 4 premiership sides all have had a tagger that can stop the oppositions best midfielder but win plenty of the ball.

Carazzo maybe, but i cant really see anyone in our side who can play that role.
Author:  Barack Obama [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Melvey wrote:
i think a bigger issue is in our midfield, we dont have a tagger like a baker, ling, kirk and Cornes

the last 4 premiership sides all have had a tagger that can stop the oppositions best midfielder but win plenty of the ball.

Carazzo maybe, but i cant really see anyone in our side who can play that role.


I think Russell can be developed into a tagger.
Author:  TheBluesMuse [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
blueboysean wrote:
Jamo is the most promising of all I reckon


Yeah I'm hopeful.
Author:  Andain [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Barack Obama wrote:
Melvey wrote:
i think a bigger issue is in our midfield, we dont have a tagger like a baker, ling, kirk and Cornes

the last 4 premiership sides all have had a tagger that can stop the oppositions best midfielder but win plenty of the ball.

Carazzo maybe, but i cant really see anyone in our side who can play that role.


I think Russell can be developed into a tagger.

I've heard Ryan Jackson goes alright :wink:
Author:  Lace Out [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andain wrote:
Barack Obama wrote:
Melvey wrote:
i think a bigger issue is in our midfield, we dont have a tagger like a baker, ling, kirk and Cornes

the last 4 premiership sides all have had a tagger that can stop the oppositions best midfielder but win plenty of the ball.

Carazzo maybe, but i cant really see anyone in our side who can play that role.


I think Russell can be developed into a tagger.

I've heard Ryan Jackson goes alright :wink:


You guys are forgetting the most promising nullifier we have on our list...

Joey.

This guy will not only stop them, but in time will hurt them as he runs off to help create play...
Author:  bondiblue [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have been meaning to prompt discussion re the important defense issue , so goodonya Barack for doing so.

Firstly as far as the floodgates opening from the middle (which put overwhelming pressure on a young, inexperienced defense) in 2007, will be quelled somewhat by our new recuits Judd, Stevens (those 2 alone should help a lot), Aisake, Hampson and Kreuzer, let alone kids with the benefit of another preseason and tag relief for Murphy, Gibbs, Russell and Jackson, taking another step forward....and a fresh coach and game plan....should bode well for a better defensive effort across the park in general.

2008, in the middle: Judd, Stevens, Murphy, Gibbs, Simmo and Carrots (now that looks strong). Throw in Walker, Scotland, Houlihan, Bentick, Jackson and Russell and I think we have the foundation of a good engine room. We will be much more competitive and elusive.

As far as taggers are concerned we have dependable ones available in Carrots and Jackson. We may also look at Anderson, Russell and maybe Grigg for tagging roles. I think we're covered in that area too.

It's the ruck that feeds the engine room that is going to make or break us in 2008.

We know 195cm ruckmen are not the answer eg Ackland and Cloke, although Cloke may provide some relief in that area from time to time (personally, I don't think he'll get much senior time in the ruck next year if...). It all depends on how our young 200cm ruckmen perform/ step up, and in them I am asking for a fair bit. Hampson and Aisake are very important in 2008, and Kreuzer will do some form of apprenticeship in that area too. With ithe inclusion of Aisake and Kreuzer in 2008, I believe we're heading in the right direction, albeit, I don't expect them to star but moreso compete and nullify at the ruck contest better than we did in 2008, and provide some headaches around the ground.

So all in all I think the defense will have its best chance to improve in 2008, moreso that any other of our last 5 years.

The key defensive posts are critical. Ideally, I would love to see Waite and Setanta in attacking positions forward of centre (perhaps playing wings), but at least for a start I know that Setanta at FB and Waite at CHB are reliable performers, and can do those KP positions justice.

What I'm hoping for is Jamison to hold FB (although he hasn't even been promoted from the rookies in 2008) and Setanta to hold down CHB in 2008. Both are good in the air and seem to be good below the knees, as well have an attacking flair to suit the modern run on game. They can be supported by Thornton as the third tall (am expecting much more from T Bird in 2008; 2007 was poor) and maybe the attacking tall Bower.

I have several combinations drawn up for defense, with this one reflecting some of the 'good' glimpses of 2007:

B Anderson Jamison Thornton
HB Scotland Setanta Walker

It would be great to see Walker and even Scotland play midfield roles, and this would require Bower, Russell or Grigg earning their stripes in defense. All have some height and pace.

If not, based on 2007 form:

B: Scotland Setanta Jamison
HB: Walker Waite Thornton

I consider Hartlett as a roughie for the backline , and Austin to continue his apprenticeship in 2008, as he should, with Bower being capable to hold a BP or HBF position and ahead of those 2 based on 2007 form.

I'm expecting significant improvement in defense if we get Judd and Stevens on the park. I'm expecting a very good season if Aisake and Hampson hold their own...with Hampson to fade towards the end of the year...by when Kreuzer may have adjusted to AFL tempo and surprise a few in the ruck.
Author:  blueboysean [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
bondiblue wrote:
I have several combinations drawn up for defense, with this one reflecting some of the 'good' glimpses of 2007:

B Anderson Jamison Thornton
HB Scotland Setanta Walker



I like this one! HOWEVER: Replace Scotland with Houlihan, both are loose, but Houlihan can do a very good defensive job. Scotland has less of a defensive mindset. The thing with Houlihan is that he's good going forward as well.
Author:  Blues Clues [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Humpers wrote:
I'm pinning my hopes on either Hartlett, Setanta or Austin.


Hartlett only a forward and he's looked quite good their at times - injury free he should be given another crack at CHF. Can't even hack CHB for Ants and seeing what Newton did to him in Dees game confirmed that well and truly.
Author:  Siegfried [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Agree Bondi.

On the assumption that Keneedy goes west, Waite will need to play CHF. I know he has his critics here, but I saw enough this year when he was in the forward line to think he could make an excellent CHF.

Whatever happens, Ratten needs to decide on a structure, and stick to it. This is one of the areas that Pagan feel down in last year, started with a structure (Setanta at FB, Waite at CHB) and then abandoned it, without establishing something new...kept chopping and changing.

I would like to see Jamison given the full back brief, and Setanta CHB. This is the year Setanta needs to develop in one position, IMHO, and I think CHB is as suited to him as anywhere else, and we need one.

So, goal to goal line would be Jamison, Setanta, Judd (!), Waite, Fevola.

Thornton plays third tall, and if Austin can oust him, then good on him. Good to have some competition.
Author:  bondiblue [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
bbs wrote

Quote:
Replace Scotland with Houlihan, both are loose, but Houlihan can do a very good defensive job. Scotland has less of a defensive mindset. The thing with Houlihan is that he's good going forward as well.


I know this thread is KP defense, but I guess in a team environment, everything is waeved in the fabric.

I agree with Houla being a good backman; I've seen enough up close to be convinced...and yes he's taller than some think...187cm vs Scotland 181cm.

Nevertheless, I really would like to see Houlihan at HFF because of his disposal by foot, and with his engine, he hss ability to play a midfield/defensive running role from HFF. I loved the job he did on the Crows B&F in 2007.

I think that Scotland in the middle would give us plenty of body strength with the likes of Judd, Stevens, Scotland and Carrots...and even Walker. Giving Murphy and Simmo the running/ link roles from the wings. Have to say though I love the idea of tall wingmen, or at least express speed.

Hartlett can make a good CHF. He attacks the ball and is aggressive. A few my kg's and whp knows he could be close to what our JK was going to be for us. I like him, he has a bit of mongrel.I'd like to see him develop as a third tall and even take on the kick in play duties at FB...yeah I know ..the first 5 yards is a problem against fast leading KP forwards.

Waite = Reiwoldt at CHF imo.
Waite at CHB beats Reiwoldt according to the record.
Author:  Siegfried [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, Hartlett is an option at CHF, would like to see him play some consecutive games there.

The other option for CHB is Walker, has the right build and is athletic enough. And now that we have some depth in the midfield...
Author:  cj69 [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree BB.

I reckon we now have some could stability and flexibility in our defence. With a better midfield they will do very well. Jamison & Thornton can handle most key forwards (with Austin & Bower becoming other options) and Setanta has shown he can handle any gorilla's. I would like to see Walker take on a Pavlich, Hall, Tredrea or Reiwolt as he is bigger than people think and can run off these players a bit like Scarlett does.

Whatever happens we have options to negate and to create run from defence.

PS Don't forget to include Betts as a real contributor in the midfield and maybe even defence. Ratts has told him to get fit and if he does he reads and uses the ball as good as anyone. With him, Stevens & Judd running out of the centre Fev will have a field day!!
Author:  TheSwan [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree that Hartlett is a forward. I think he should be given a crack at CHF. If Kennedy goes then I would think Hartletts pre season will become very important.

Waite should be at CHB. We need athleticism and run out of the backline. We cant afford to have anyone who can't match it athletically with their forward opponent.

One name that no one has mentioned is Jason Saddington. Infact, I think he can play a really good role in defense. Its important to have some experience down back and he could really help guys like Jamo, Bower, Austin etc. By the end of the year I would expect those players mentioned to take over Saddington but at the moment he is probably a shoe in for back pocket.

Ive left the best till last. One guy who can tear it up next year at FB is Setanta. He is built for a FB. Fast closing speed, long arms, strong body and a hunger to beat his opponent. He is ready.
Author:  bondiblue [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
cj 69 wrote

Quote:
PS Don't forget to include Betts as a real contributor in the midfield and maybe even defence. Ratts has told him to get fit and if he does he reads and uses the ball as good as anyone. With him, Stevens & Judd running out of the centre Fev will have a field day!!


Good Betts is good
Bad Betts is bad

I like the kid and I know he's still a novice... he's still a kid...plenty of upside. But I'm not a big fan ....yet!

He has shown some very good signs when in the middle, and suspect he can pull it off. But with Libbers now gone, whose going to give him the initiative to get to the level Ratts requires of him. Himself? He's bloody good at going walkabout during the preseason on his own. Hopefully that's in the past.

If he can get up and going in the middle...bloody useful is explosive pace in there...then there'd be Judd and Betts to rip through the lines.

Walker, a lot of peole under estimate his ability at 190cm. He can jump and run and spoil very well...and when the ball hits the ground...KAPOW. But I get the feeling he's a tad too short for a KP. But then again he may just have inspector gadget arms that seem to appear every now and again.

2008 defense is looking more flexible and athletic without Lance up there. How's this for a tall, mobile and very quick backline:

B: Anderson Setanta Jamison
HB: Walker Waite Bower
Author:  cj69 [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fair points BB,

I see Walker in a Campbell Brown type role, not as big but hard and agile and able to run of and provide attacking options.

I agree about Betts and I reckon Ratts will be harder on him than DP was. He has genuine ability and works well in traffic and uses the ball well by foot which is something we lack. He is almost a bit like what G Ablett was last year before he got REALLY fit.

I agree that we are and need to be more mobile and quick from defence, we also need to use the ball better.

With that in mind look at the options.

Small Backs: Anderson, Scotland, Grigg, Houlihan?(should be a forward), Wiggins, Russell, Carazzo, Gibbs, Bentick

Mid size Backs (can play tall or small): Walker, Bower, Waite, Bannister, Saddington

Tall Backs: Setanta, Jamison, Walker, Thornton, Austin, Hartlett

Lots of options with lots of improvement to happen and this doesn't include any possible recruits.

For me Waite has to be a third tall up forward with time on the ball. Also, any of our mids can run through the backs ala Pt Adelaide who start P.Burgoyne their and then run around after the bounce.

PS I think I just talked myself into getting Cotchin ahead of Kruezer? :shock:
Author:  true_blue3 [ Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
in my view, we have too many defenders who would in their prime ideally take the 3rd tall (thornton, saddington, bower, jamison etc.), we only need one player to take the 3rd tall.

this is why i think we should stop experimenting with setanta in the ruck and in the forward line and allow him to settle into a centre half back. he has the perfect body for it, he likes to play close but also likes to run and create and i think he really needs to be given a certain position which he needs to aspire to master. the game must already be hard enough for him to comprehend as it is we don't need to make it any harder for him by trying to play him in every position.

depending on the match-ups we could even have him as the full back (eg. if someone like gehrig is playing FF) and in this scenario we'd have waite come back to CHB and match up on riewoldt.

i'd like to see setanta nail the CHB spot and let jamison and thornton look after full back until someone else (such as austin) comes along and is ready to take the full back position.
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