Towards the end of the season the Carlton community was ideologically split between the pro and anti tankers. In the one corner we had the pragmatists who felt a priority pick this year was a necessary evil to help move this club forward and in the opposing corner we had the anti tankers who argued that tanking was dishonourable and defeatist. The pro tankers were severely criticised for their view and had their allegiance to Carlton questioned.

Funnily enough discussion in the forums is now centred on gaining the services of arguably the best player in the competition. It would be fair to say that we would not be in the box seat to secure Judd's services without the priority pick which has in effect provided us with the opportunity to sacrifice our much sought after draft pick no 3 as part ofour trade offer.

I am sure these anti tankers are now salivating at the thought of watching Judd in Carlton colours but the question must be asked. Do they now concede that they have lost the ideological battle and the decision to secure a priority pick was in Carlton's long term interests?

Conundrum

I was waiting for a thread like this

_________________
#DonTheStash

Actually our position concerning Judd hasn't been effected by our priority pick since we're refusing to trade it. We've always had pick 3 towards the end, it was just a question of whether we'd got pick 1 or not.

In fact, if you think about it, we'd be in a better position to get Judd if we hadn't got the priority pick. Instead of offering 3 and 20 we could be offering 3 and 19

#2 and #19

_________________
Click here to follow TalkingCarlton on twitter
TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

I tipped this!

[/Jarusa]

_________________
And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Trade Houlihan.

I respect your right to argue this point but it carries little weight imo. We can now afford to hand over a prized third draft pick to help us achieve immediate on field success without having to sacrifice our long term player development like we did in the bad old days, by securing the best youngster in the land in Kreuzer with our priority pick.

I don't think you will ever see a Team sacrifice the first draft pick again. Without resorting to tanking we would not be seeing 80+ pages of Judd posts from excited supporters. Commonsense has prevailed.

Conundrum

Havent we learnt form from our short sighted trading of the past that put us in this predicament we are in before Pagan's arrival?

Conundrum

Nice try in trying to gain the moral high ground, but you're doomed to fail. You won't find an anti-tanker here that has ever said they wouldn't gladly accept whatever came up in the draft regardless of how the season played out. So if you're trying to insinuate that people who wanted us to win regardless of the situation should feel embarassed and/or defeated because of this, then you're a sad excuse for a supporter of this club.

But out of interest, if we did get Judd and he turned out to be a limping dud, does that give me permission to point the finger at you and say 'I told you so', and make a thread talking about how much of a goose you must be now? Should I take glee in such a thing? Of course not, because it would mean our club suffers. Just like we should suffer when we lose games.

Get over yourself.

_________________
WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

Quite defensive there, obviously this thread has hit a raw nerve. Now with the benefit of hindsight, would you have preferred to have won another game or two or three for that matter or be placed in the current position that will quite likely deliver usboth the best player in the land and best youngster?.

Whilst you ponder this, I will try to get over myself.

Conundrum

Everyone here knows how I would answer that question so I don't need to waste space going over it.

BTW, if you barrack for us to win next year, does that mean YOU should admit to losing the ideological battle next year? After all, if we lose every game we'll get another #1 pick. You do want us to get another of those, don't you? You certainly would have egg on your face should another brownlow and Norm Smith medallist come on the market and you were too busy cheering us to win and thus supporting us to shoot ourselves in the foot. Unless of course you do the right thing and hope for us to lose

No doubt you would think it outrageous to be questioned about supprting your club next year, much like no-one should be questioned for doing it this year. No-one should have to admit that they are wrong about their stand on this, because it's all through a love of this football club. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, and most understand this. It's people like you that throw a spanner in the works because you're more concerned with being right than the welfare of this football club, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

And yes, good luck getting over yourself. It'll be an uphill battle I'm sure.

_________________
WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

All you have to do is read the myriad of threads of the time to see that this argument isn't black and white.
As has already been pointed out, the anti-tankers (me included) were arguing that to tank was not the ideal way to end the season from a morale point of view but at the same time if we were to get the PP, it would be welcome. I also argued a line at the time and I am yet to be proved wrong, that the PP might end up biting us on the backside down the track when list management may become an issue.
As it pans out, we could still be in the running for Judd without the PP as has also been pointed out. We haven't gained anything as far as he is concerned. What we have gained is the option to select Kreuzer, which we wouldn't have had. Judd doesn't enter into it.
And yes, I will be glad if we get him but I will not be glad if we trade away the world to get him. There is now a school that says we may still be better off with Kreuzer and Cotchin or Morton or Ebert.
There is NO moral high ground here so as Donstuie has rightly pointed out.
We will take what we get and we wil go onwards and upwards. I am actually hoping Judd goes to Melbourne so we can just forget about the whole thing and do what we were all so happy to be doing a week ago, developing a young list.
Judd is the icing but we don't have to have him to move forward.
And who says we tanked anyway? We lost games but there is no hard evidence of tanking.

_________________
Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

I couldn't agree more. I thought this was about winning games of football, not savvy political manouvering. Idealogically split? Um...get the ball and kick a goal. That's the fundamental ideology prevailing in the game as far as I knew. Either you want to win games or not. I was happy for MY team to go and win games. If we had've won just one more game at the beginning of the year all of this wouldn't have been an issue would it? We were close a few times so it's a very thin moral line you're walking there. I accept your desire for progress, but as far as I'm concerned, the proper course of action moralistically is to play the game and take what you're left with. But that's just me.

Oh Sombo, sometimes you put it so eliquantly I think you're speaking Spanish!

.... Hey Condundrum.... what he said!

Camelboy Posted




You will find that Melbourne would have had pick #2 ahead of us if we had not lost thus keeping us at only #3 and #20.

Actually #3 and #21... but hey, who's counting. I think the point by Camel is that we may have won an earlier game and lost to Melbourne, meaning both teams would have missed out on a PP and we would have finished lower on percentage getting picks #2 & #19... so he is more right than you!

_________________
Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I heard a whisper that at least two Big Big Fish want to come home next year. Let's tank! We have the kids, now lets stack up the returning Vets!

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

By the same token, pro-tankers shouldn't be celebrating the possibility of Judd in Navy Blue, as he'll only help us win "meaningless" games.

Pro-tankers, anti-tankers - none of us should be happy.

LET'S ALL SLASH OUR WRISTS

_________________
Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

OK then, you go first.

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|