There are two ways for the club to progress from this point on, and each have merit.

The first way is for us to hold firm, keep our picks maintain an aggressive youth policy and try to trade for even more early picks. This is the approach that Dermott Brereton advocated we take, and is obviously the approach that Hawthorn has taken with quite a bit of early success.

The benefits are clear. We build up a strong core of young talent, all maturing at around the same time. Growing up together, if they're handled properly they should develop a strong esprit de corps and provide us with good days for years to come.

The downside is that we won't see the immediate benefits onfield, we'd have to lose a quality player (Fev for example) and it would most likely preclude us from making a play for Judd.

Then there's the bold statement. By this, I mean making a big play for Judd. Pick 1 must be off the table (although Liam Pickering thinks we should be willing to trade No.1), so we're looking at pick 3 and either a good player or another reasonably early pick we've got off another club for one of our good players. Either way, it's a good pick and a good player.

The benefits again are obvious. We have a chronic lack of leadership amongst the playing group. Having Whitnall as captain speaks for itself. Could you imagine a better person to provide leadership to Gibbs, Murph and Co? A guy like Judd would not only immediately improve us as a team through his talent, he'd also improve us as a team through his leadership, professionalism and aura.

It's also a marketing coup, and great for membership and sponsorship.

On the downside, he'll be expensive (in terms of $$ and picks/players) and there is a question mark over how many years of service we should expect from him. Will he be a good footballer in 6-8 years time when Gibbs, Murph and these guys are at their peak? Or are we buying a 5 year player? In that sense, it's a risk.

The other downside is that he's just one player. If we learn anything from Geelong and Collingwood this year, it's that individual superstars aren't necessarily what you need to build a strong team. A large number of talented worker-ants can get you a flag. Getting Judd probably means we're not necessarily adopting that approach.

No-one will be entirely right, or entirely wrong on this issue, and in the end whether it's worth doing will be largely dependent on how much he costs (more in terms of picks/players than money)

If Judd wants to come back to Melbourne, it's going to be the most interesting trade period in history.

I'm not sold on the Judd = Leadership equation. No doubt he comes across as a great guy and interesting (bizarre in a footballer) but leadership is about more than simply being intelligent and a top bloke. Judd sets a great example but no greater than any of the many really professional players out there.

One of the reasons I question Judd's leadership is because you only have to look at the turmoil at West Coast over the last couple of years to realise that if Judd is the great leader people believe he is then it's certainly not getting through to many of the Eagles list. If there was ever a side that won a flag on talent alone it was West Coast last year. And why is it that many AFL followers continue to spout the cliche about Ben Cousins being the "spiritual leader" of the club.

When people talk about leadership in football I tend to think of guys like Brett Kirk rather than Chris Judd. There's a strength of personality there and you can almost see the effect Kirk has on those around him. I never get that sense from Judd. I'm sure his teammates love playing alongside him but I don't get the sense that he lifts them in the way that the great leaders do.

When your leadership stocks are as poor as ours are (has a club ever had such a dearth?) you take what you can get but perhaps you also clutch at things that aren't quite what they appear at first glance in the hope that they'll solve all your problems.

As a midfielder there are few who come close to Judd but if it's an instant leader we want it's not Chris Judd I'd be turning to.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

You're right, and for that reason, Kirk is my favourite footballer by a mile.

By leadership, I'm thinking more in terms of the quiet 'do as I do' kind of leadership which I'm sure a guy like Judd would possess. Keep in mind that he got the captaincy at age 22 over there - guys like Cousins who are 28 make up the leadership core and there's no way one person (particularly if that person is younger) is going to be able to change the leadership dynamic of a club 'led' by guys like Cousins and his partyboy cohorts.

A 23/24 yo leader is perfect for the 19, 20yo's we've got. For 28/30yo's like Cousins and Chick... tough gig.

I would keep the top picks and try and find a seasoned defender or two from another avenue. (Later picks/ Pre season draft)

To get Judd you have to lose something equal or greater in value so it just cancels itself out.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I am dead against getting Judd. Drive the price up by all means, but we must show that we have learned from past blunders in this area. He has a chronic injury, and people are talking about him chewing up 16% of our TPP for 5 years, as well as say Fevola and pick 20 or pick 3.

This is not on. We should develop our own.

I understand the arguments with respect to paying too much and also the leadership issues.

Without knowing the in and outs of what has gone on at West Coast it has been pretty apparent that the off-field culture of the club has been bad for a long time.

Nobody here knows what Judd has tried or not tried to do with respect to turning that around. If it wasn't for Cousins indescretions he would still be captain of the club. Maybe Judd has tried and failed and it may be one of the factors in possibly coming back to Melbourne.

Must also be remembered that Cousins was captain in 2005 and WC just missed out (despite Judd winning the norm smith), Judd becomes captain in 2006 and they win the premiership. Is that due in part to his leadership? Who knows?

The most memorable image of the 2006 grand final for me was when Worsfold directed Cousins to come up onto the stage and hold the cup aloft with Judd. There was Judd holding the cup aloft with pride and certainly dignity and there on the other side of the cup was Cousins waving his free arm around maniacally like a windmill and hooting and hollering like an audience member on Jerry Springer.

The contrast could not have been more stark.

Whatever we might conjecture about leadership skills there is no doubting that Judd is an exceptional footballer and appears to be a quality person.

Sometimes I try to project how I think about how others would feel in certain situations.

Imagine yourself as Kade Simpson, Brad Fisher or Jarrad Waite and the club has just told you that Chris Judd will be your teammate next year.

The effect on the playing list would have to be overwhelmingly positive. Their confidence levels would skyrocket I reckon.

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I'd be happy for either way, but would prefer to get Judd. I don't think past blunders of trading for other team's players comes into it, because Judd is a 23-24 year old superstar. I think he will recover and other players have recovered from this type of injury.

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Chris Judd: 'I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and realise pressure points are no laughing matter.'

How sure can you be that he'll be even a five year player, the way he's hobbling around he could be on the scrap heap in three years, IMHO it's a big risk trading 1 or 3 for someone like Judd, chase him by all means but we've been through far too much pain to get picks 1 & 3, I'd rather we use them for the long term, not short term gain.

What has been overlooked in this debate is that if we get Judd, we will have 2 gun midfield recruits for next year. The other being Stevens. These 2 together with Walker,Gibbs, Murphy etc would give us some serious midfield firepower in a year or 2. It would definately accelerate our rise up the ladder and imagine the boost to our membership. Would we be the first Vic team to crack 40k? Eddie would be spewing

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I see you watching me watching you.

Question without notice, how old was diesel when he moved to the Blues????

If premierships were awarded to the club with the biggest membership then that'd be terrific. As they're not I'm happy sticking with a good long term list management strategy.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

28-29ish

http://www.blueseum.org/cfc/tiki-index. ... g+Williams

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Diesel was 28.5 at the start of the 92 season but he was coming to a club that was ready to challenge for a flag with a solid group of senior players (Kernahan, SOS, Braddles, Dean, Madden etc etc).

That's the time to bring in a pinch hitter - not when you've got a bunch of kids who are still 4-5 years away from their peak.

Also Diesel's game wasn't built on his athletic prowess. He got smarter as he got older but his drop off in pace ( ) didn't affect his game as it might Judd's.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

THanks Jars

There are risks associated with both scenarios. Pick 3 could turn out to be another Fiora, just as Judd may turn out to be Kouta post the knee reco. Though I think the risk around Judd can be minimised by getting a medical opinion. Judd is only 24, so failing serious injury has at least another 6 yrs.

Blunders of past dosen't mean that we should never take risk again, the decision has to be on a case by case basis. The financial risk can managed by inserting a performance or mimimum games clause. The problem with Kouta deal was that it was a blanket contract.

Personally, I would be upset if the MC did not chase Judd.

Great post JohnM, you have identified the fork in the road.

Personally, I'd prefer your former scenario - holding firm. In my opinion, we;ve suffered so long, and the light is now at the end of the tunnel so let's do this properly. The odds are better if we just keep hoarding early picks.

Holding firm takes time though (despite the optimism of TC we're a bottom 4 side next year), and you have to look who's running the club - Old Carlton.

I love Old Carlton, but it wants results now, even if it has to buy them, like the old days. Footy has changed though, and recent history says that if you develop a young core well you can have a good shot at success.

The other difference is how much we'd have to give to get Judd compared to what we gave to get Barrassi, Diesel et al. We'd basically be selling half the club and I can;t see us yielding a net gain.

As TC supporteers who are there every week and are willing to see this long process through, I think the majority reckon 'hold firm', but the bandwagon that want results quickly and can't take this crapness no more, will be asking for a 'bold statement'.

IMO, hold firm

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

The injury is only chronic due to the fact that the Eagles have played him injureed for much of the year - much like we have with Fevola in the past. Just as well he is getting surgery during the off-season, I have stressed with everyone I talk footy to that if they continued to play him and leave it untreated, scar tissue could restrict his movements in the future or, even worse - it could turn degenerative.

That said, one positive that has not really been mentioned much here is the fact that bringing someone like Judd - and this is a case where Judd would have the biggest impact - would lift the entire side and get them to walk taller as a team.

The second thing which is a big deal for me, is thinking about how many people would be renewing their memberships (apart from us TC tragics) after an admittedly abysmal year - and how many would sign up when they find out the 23 (24?) year old brownlow medal winner and premiership medallist call Chris Judd is coming to the Mighty Blues.

Carlton + Chris Judd = another record membership year?!?

I'm definitely in the 'Recruit Judd' bandwagon but of course it always comes down to price. By price I mean trade / picks as against his financial price ..mostly...

Just on the Judd leadership issue and WCE being in the news for many a wrong reason over the past 24 months. I think the burgeoning Perth economy has a lot to do with that - there is literally money everywhere in that place. Colleagues of mine in Perth are flush with cash and spending it on anything - friends I've had for a long time have only recently begun experimenting with drugs etc. I think the boom in Perth in terms of cash availability is leading to a bit more 'temptation' than in other eras and wouldn't mark Judd down for what his team-mates may do off-field.

The Blues under our best Captain ever were no Saints, but of course they are different eras and different cities.

Judd on-field would provide leadership mainly through inspiring the team. Midfield match-ups wouldn't hurt with his availability either.

Look, Luke Ball has serious problem with his OP/groin injury and he has had to move to a long term management plan because it is chronic. Judd has had OP problem virtually all year, and seeking advice from Ball, so as far as we can see there is a strong chance it is chronic. Also possibility he has a hip/ankle and shoulder problems too. And Judd relies on his power, it is one of the keys to his game, unlike Ball.

New coach, new coaches, 3 more high picks will also work well around the place, and Stevens back (hopefully).

Agree, this is an "old Carlton" tactic, and I want to see that attitude gone.

Our club has been down for 5 years. When I say down I mean a winning ratio of just over 20%- thats one in 5 games, and losses of the magnitude of 60+ points on over 25 ocassions.
In that time, we have added some real blue chip quality youngsters, and are looking to add more in 07.
We are also seeing the return of our best midfielder and the continued development of Walker, Gibbs, Murphy, Jackon, Grigg, Simpson etc in the middle.
I understand all the trepidation about signing Judd- yes he will command a huge salary and yes we will have to give up some early picks for him, but Judd I think finds the balance between the two options outlined by John at the start of this thread.
He is able to aid in the duel roles of a) helping the development of the youngsters (it is almost guaranteed that guys like Murph wont get nearly as much attention with Juddy there) as well as ensuring we have a midfield that is potentially one of the best in the league. In fact, I think it will be saturated in potential with virtually 5 players taken in the top 4 picks in the draft.

Our club has got its off field stocks in order with Pratt, Swann and Icke, as well as the impending announcement of Vodafone jumping on board.
We have already invested heavily in youth in the past few drafts, and will do so again in 07 (pick 3 or no Pick 3.)
Juddy will almost complete the puzzle, offering not just a mountain of talent, but the intangibles such as leadership that has been sorely missing.