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| Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17778 |
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| Author: | ryan2000 [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. |
For the 2nd year now, we have but 1........... just 1 nomination in the NAB Rising Star award. Last year it was Murphy, this years it's Gibbs. For a team that is constantly talked up as being a list full of potential and young superstars, i find it hard to understand how we can only have 1 nomination and just 2 for the past 2 years. Kennedy, Bower, Grigg, Aiskaie (who was still eligable this season but will not be for 08'), are just 4 players that i had seen as CERTAINTIES to earn a nomination this year. Largly, i blame Denis for the way he played our kids. He had alot of supporters on this and alot of critics also, but the proof is in the pudding on two kids who i constantly commented on being played out of position by Pagan. They were Gibbs & Bower............ Let's have a look at their Stats During Pagan's reign & afterwards. GIBBS - Pagan - - Ratten - 11.6 disp 16.8 disp 3.6 marks 5.6 marks BOWER - Pagan - - Ratten - 10 disp 14.8 disp 3.5 marks 5 marks Now i'm not trying to dig up the past here or anything like that. But those averages speak for themselves. The two teams who i thought showed great strength and belief in thier youth this year were (IMHO) Collingwood & Port Adelaide. Both have a total of three...................3.............nominations EACH in todays Rising Star Award......and only one each were a first round picks. The others were late picks and or rookies. (side note:- Both these teams are also playing finals football with these nominees playing KEY roles in their sides finals campaigns). Mark Williames was brilliant in bringing in Westhoff & Gray when he needed more options up forward. Westhoff went on to kick 32 goals in just 14 games and Grey stepped up to fill the void that Tredrea left. Ditto Malthouse with his decision to promote Marty Clarke & Tyson Goldsack in replace of the lost bodies through the midfield and defense that should have seen his team drop down the ladder......instead, they proved quite a few people wrong (including me) and are satisfying their many fans by playing last years grand finalists at the MCG in the elimination final.........IN WHICH THEY WILL GO INTO AS FAVOURITES! Now look at our situation............... We had Cloke go down early and Ackland not showing so much as a hint of giving two shits about the club, it's players or the game itself. We had a great, no make that a PERFECT, opportunity to bring in a young ruckman such as Aisakie or Jacobs or the very raw Hampson. All had been proving their worth in the Bullants. But instead, we bring in Kennedy..........who we drafted as a forward / KP. I have no doubt that had we brought in a ruckman to replace Cloke (such as Aisakie) and left Kennedy to develop as the foward we drafted him as, we would have had at least another nomination this year! Possibly two. (perhaps a few more wins also) Where Collingwood and Port Adelaide had the guts & belief...........we had excuses. Now, after Hampson was given an opportunity in the final 2 games of the bloody year (we have a habit of doing that - see Bower & Jackson last year), we're already talking him up as a starting ruckman for season 08'. YES, he's RAW...............but that's just it........so are 99% of draftees in their first 2-3 seasons. Westhoff was RAW. Marty Clake was RAW. Tyson Goldsack is RAW. All of them are playing finals this week and guess what..............they're still very RAW! But that doesn't mean they cannot be effective and play a major role in their team whislt developing. What's my point........................... Well, for those of you who think i'm demanding that we play Kreuzer in the ruck from round 1 and expect him to get 350+hitouts for the year and win the rising star nomination...........your wrong. I'm not expecting that at all. And even thou i was not happy with how Denis used Gibbs earlier on in the season, Gibbs exceded my expectations and i couldn't ask for anything more from the kid, who at 18 has played all 22 games this season. What i AM saying is that the list that we played on Sunday night.......one of, if not, THE youngest list we've ever put out, showed that whilst we do need to tread carefully with these kids and not expect the world from them, that we also need to show some belief and opportunity in them too. Next year, Aisakie MUST be starting in the ruck with Cloke as a backup and Hampson named as an emergency. If Cloke doesn't perform, the Hampson must be brought in. No excuses. No 'Oh, he's only young and still very raw'........just bloody do it! In just two rounds, Hampson showed more than Ackland has all year and i think, if i'm not wrong, has already outdone Ackland for contested marks???? Bower & Grigg must be played in the same positions that they played in last sunday night that saw them earn more than 42 posessions BETWEEN them. THAT, in a nutshell, is what i want more than anything in 2008. No more excuses, no more kids getting 20min of gametime, no more playing a bloody midfielder as a fullback and calling it development. Create opportunites.............not excuses..............cause giving a kid an opportunity is in itself the perfect tool for their development!.....just ask Justin Westhoff, or Tyson Goldsack, or Marty Clarke, etc, etc, etc. AGAIN.............I MUST STRESS THAT i'm in no way expecting greatness from these kids. But if we do draft Kreuzer.........play him to the role he is supposed to develop into and give him opportunities. I better not see him playing as a fullback lining up on Matty Llyod or sitting on the god-damn bench for 90mins of the game. Anyway. That's my rant for the day. GO BLUES and good luck and CONGRATULATIONS to Bryce Gibbs for his Rising Star Nomination and Congratulations to all our young list for their efforts this year. Keep it up boys. |
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| Author: | DownUnderChick [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:36 am ] |
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Love your passion Ryan and agree in principle with what you are saying. We didn't show as much faith in our kids as other clubs have but I think our infrastructure [support, develpment] has not been as good as other clubs either. The change in stats re: disposals is more reflective of the differing game plans between the 2 coaches but I will agree that there is more confidence in the younger players, playing under Ratts than there was under Pagan. I would like to think that next year we will get more nods for the NRS but it really doesn't bother me whether we do or don't as I believe that Gibbs' development this year far outweighs whether the likes of KB, Potsie Anderson or Fonzie Fat Boy give him the thumbs up for NRS. |
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| Author: | camel [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:46 am ] |
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For all of that rant I didn't see too much complaining about the rising star stuff. While rising star nominations give punters like us a nice warm feeling ultimately it doesn't really mean too much. Take a look at some of our recent nominees and then take a look at our current list. 
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| Author: | nytdog [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:50 am ] |
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Asaike, if fit, will get an early opportunity in the practice games next year and if he shows something should play in the ruck in the NAB cup and from there, anything can happen. 5-10 games into his career he'll already be better than Ackland. |
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| Author: | kingkerna [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:59 am ] |
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Bower didn't get nominated because he is a below average footballer - hopefully this will change in time. The others you can blame on Pagan not giving them adequate game time and unfortunate injuries etc |
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| Author: | samblueboy [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:12 pm ] |
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I agree that a nomination is not the be all and end all, but it has to be said that if you are going to blame Denis Pagan you might as well blame our development coaches or lack of. You're laying too much of the blame on Pagan IMO, he does deserve some, but he is only partially responsible. It has been said in the past that Swann has looked into fixing up this area of the football department, because right now Collingwood has invested solidly into player development. I sense next year will be a big year for us in terms of nominations and am tipping at least 2. I hope. |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:17 pm ] |
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kingkerna wrote: Bower didn't get nominated because he is a below average footballer - hopefully this will change in time.
The others you can blame on Pagan not giving them adequate game time and unfortunate injuries etc below average AFL footballer or bellow average AFL 19 year old footballer.??? As usuali im not following what youre saying..... |
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| Author: | kingkerna [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:27 pm ] |
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Synbad wrote: kingkerna wrote: Bower didn't get nominated because he is a below average footballer - hopefully this will change in time. The others you can blame on Pagan not giving them adequate game time and unfortunate injuries etc below average AFL footballer or bellow average AFL 19 year old footballer.??? As usuali im not following what youre saying..... Sorry, let me explain - I believe (am I entitled to an opinion?) that he is definately a below average AFL footballer (seniors) and is only average at VFL level. Also when compared to footballers of a similar age playing in the AFL he is only average. Hence why the EXPERTS (not you or I) did not consider him for the award. |
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| Author: | nytdog [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:29 pm ] |
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kingkerna wrote: Synbad wrote: kingkerna wrote: Bower didn't get nominated because he is a below average footballer - hopefully this will change in time. The others you can blame on Pagan not giving them adequate game time and unfortunate injuries etc below average AFL footballer or bellow average AFL 19 year old footballer.??? As usuali im not following what youre saying..... Sorry, let me explain - I believe (am I entitled to an opinion?) that he is definately a below average AFL footballer (seniors) and is only average at VFL level. Also when compared to footballers of a similar age playing in the AFL he is only average. Hence why the EXPERTS (not you or I) did not consider him for the award. KK I usually agree with ya, but this one I think you're off. He played some very good footy at the end of this year and showed plenty of signs he will be a very good footballer. |
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| Author: | Ruckus [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:37 pm ] |
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As much as I would've been happy to see an injury-free Marc Murphy win the award last year, I don't particularly hold it in that high a regard. Its nomination system is flawed, as are the eligibility requirements, and frankly, until we start winning some games of footy, we're going to struggle to have our lads nominated. Let's not confuse player development, or perceived lack thereof, with the NRS and its inherent quirks. |
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| Author: | Big Kahuna Boot [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:38 pm ] |
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..i'm really unsure about Bower meself.. ..he's not afraid to back into a pack for a mark knowing full well the hit is coming, and especially for a defender that's an admirable trait that can't be taught.. ..i haven't seen these supposed glimpses of talent.. ..even hacks in the game can do the odd good thing in play.. ..but i'm not writing him off just yet either.. ..until the end of the year, we had bugger all communication between our vfl affliate and seniors.. ..under pags, his development was as speedy as molasses.. ..under ratts, again hard to tell with the new gameplan and the whole PP off-colouring the last games of the yr.. ..i think jamo and jacko has shown more.. ..but ultimately, i think next year's season will show us more.. ..better coach, vfl/afl communication restored and hopefully good asst/development coaches and better training facilities.. |
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| Author: | woof [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. |
ryan2000 wrote: GIBBS
- Pagan - - Ratten - 11.6 disp 16.8 disp 3.6 marks 5.6 marks BOWER - Pagan - - Ratten - 10 disp 14.8 disp 3.5 marks 5 marks Are the possession increases due to the gameplan adopted by Ratten or development? I reckon the improvement for our kids needs to come from what they are taught from Monday - Friday and not necessarily on game day. Port Adelaide and Collingwood are really strong in this area and hence their kids seemed to be fast tracked. We are not strong in this area as a club but I hear that it will be addressed. If you ask the Collingwood people who gets credit for the development of their youth I don't think the answer is Malthouse, the name you will get is Brad Scott. It should never be Pagans job and it should never be Rattens job. |
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| Author: | Sydney Blue [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. |
woof wrote: ryan2000 wrote: GIBBS - Pagan - - Ratten - 11.6 disp 16.8 disp 3.6 marks 5.6 marks BOWER - Pagan - - Ratten - 10 disp 14.8 disp 3.5 marks 5 marks Are the possession increases due to the gameplan adopted by Ratten or development? I reckon the improvement for our kids needs to come from what they are taught from Monday - Friday and not necessarily on game day. Port Adelaide and Collingwood are really strong in this area and hence their kids seemed to be fast tracked. We are not strong in this area as a club but I hear that it will be addressed. If you ask the Collingwood people who gets credit for the development of their youth I don't think the answer is Malthouse, the name you will get is Brad Scott. It should never be Pagans job and it should never be Rattens job. Yes the stats improvement is a change of gameplan and about time The rest of your post is total rubbish they learn more on the field than they do on the training track there is nothing like playing the game Even your dearly departed mate used to say playing in Preseason finals was worth 10-15 games of experience |
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| Author: | BlueWorld [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:58 pm ] |
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You could go through all the players and show that. Eg Scotland last few games under Pagan was getting 16-26. Under Ratten 26-41. There was an article 2-3 weeks ago in the H-Sun which showed we'd gone from 16th to 2nd for disposals under Ratten. |
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| Author: | woof [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. |
Sydney Blue wrote: woof wrote: ryan2000 wrote: GIBBS - Pagan - - Ratten - 11.6 disp 16.8 disp 3.6 marks 5.6 marks BOWER - Pagan - - Ratten - 10 disp 14.8 disp 3.5 marks 5 marks Are the possession increases due to the gameplan adopted by Ratten or development? I reckon the improvement for our kids needs to come from what they are taught from Monday - Friday and not necessarily on game day. Port Adelaide and Collingwood are really strong in this area and hence their kids seemed to be fast tracked. We are not strong in this area as a club but I hear that it will be addressed. If you ask the Collingwood people who gets credit for the development of their youth I don't think the answer is Malthouse, the name you will get is Brad Scott. It should never be Pagans job and it should never be Rattens job. Yes the stats improvement is a change of gameplan and about time The rest of your post is total rubbish they learn more on the field than they do on the training track there is nothing like playing the game Even your dearly departed mate used to say playing in Preseason finals was worth 10-15 games of experience So who gets them ready to play the game? Why are we going to employ a development coach next season and what will that role involve? Developing kids these days is far more than just playing games of football and now DEMANDS a specialists within the club and not the HEAD coach doing it whoever they might be. |
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| Author: | ryan2000 [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing our Kids (post Pagan) - a Rising Star Rant. |
woof wrote: ryan2000 wrote: GIBBS - Pagan - - Ratten - 11.6 disp 16.8 disp 3.6 marks 5.6 marks BOWER - Pagan - - Ratten - 10 disp 14.8 disp 3.5 marks 5 marks Are the possession increases due to the gameplan adopted by Ratten or development? I reckon the improvement for our kids needs to come from what they are taught from Monday - Friday and not necessarily on game day. Port Adelaide and Collingwood are really strong in this area and hence their kids seemed to be fast tracked. We are not strong in this area as a club but I hear that it will be addressed. If you ask the Collingwood people who gets credit for the development of their youth I don't think the answer is Malthouse, the name you will get is Brad Scott. It should never be Pagans job and it should never be Rattens job. Yeah good post woolf............. It could well be a change of game plan that indicates the rapid improvement re:- our kids. But i also see it as a change of position............ Ala Gibbs from Full Back to Midfield and Bower from the bench to the actual bloody football field (but more-so across Half Back). That is the reason i see us getting such an increase in disposals.........because we're using players in their correct position.....and this includes the kids. Play em out of position and we're slowing down or destroying their development. My post is not so much of a rant towards The Rising Star award but more a rant as to why our list is (supposedly) full of potential yet we only have 2 nominations in 2 years. On Bower...............I cannot believe what i'm hearing? People are already writting of a 19 year old kid? My god 
He's past few games have been quite good and his last game could and maybe SHOULD have earned him the final rising star nomination. 21 possessions and some very courageous play. I thought he was one of our best......certainly in the top 5. Bower will prove you all wrong. Anyway.................i've enjoyed reading everybody's responses. In the end, all i'm saying is that i hope we focus hard on our youths development next year because it has really been flagging in the past couple of season. - More game time. - More opportunities. - Play them in the correct position. - Show some belief in them. I dunno................maybe i shouldn't be laying the blame entirly on Pagan.............but i'll argue with anybody that we (whoever is to blame) have NOT been giving to much attention on the above. I liked the Brad Scott comment thou...............your probably right with that one. |
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| Author: | Indie [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:27 pm ] |
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If we were remotely interested in the Rising Star Award, then we've recruited the wrong sorts of players. Gibbs was an underage recruit, and he wasn't comfortable with the tempo when he arrived. Go back over his early interviews, and you'll read that in his own words. If we wanted to groom him for the RS award, we needed to limit his games to 9 or 10, and put him forward for it next year. As it was, we played him in every game this year. We blew it big time. On the plus side, however, we have put 22 games into him and he'll be much better for it next year. Suggestions that he should have been played in the midfield from the start because he did well in the last couple of games are simple-minded. Wayne Hughes was interviewed at the RS Award, and was asked whether Gibbs was played down back out of necessity or whether it was pre-planned. WH said that the year went pretty much as planned. He said that playing him down back took the pressure off him and allowed him to develop. He also said that Gibbs will show the benefit of that next year. But what would WH know? Clearly, it's always a good idea to look at the end result and then assume that the same development would have been effected by throwing players into the deep end. Using the above philosophy, it's now obvious that Michael Tuck was robbed of 40 or so senior games by sticking him in the reserves for the first 2 years. Bruce Doull should have been played in a key-defensive post right from the start rather than being sheltered in the reserves. And Hamish McIntosh should have been played as the No. 1 ruckman at the Kangaroos as soon as he was drafted rather than being wasted in the magoos. Couldn't those responsible see their potential? We also shouldn't have gone for Hampson at 17. He was always going to take time to develop, so we blew a chance at the RS Award right there. Grigg and Anderson were too injury-prone, so we blew their selections too. Benjamin and Austin were never going to be ready in their 1st years. They might well have great potential, but will take too long to garner a RS award. We need to go for overage recruits like Goldsack. Then when we stick them in the seniors, everyone will marvel at how well they fare against the underage recruits. |
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| Author: | Punter22 [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:50 pm ] |
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I personally couldn't care less about nominations, and considering the change in gameplan once Ratts took over comparisons on stats is fundamentally flawed, IMO. However I think the overall point is valid. I only needed to see Jackson come in and look generally pretty good the instant Pagan was out the door to know he was holding back young blokes worthy of getting game time into them. |
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| Author: | marciblue [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:57 pm ] |
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Ryan2000, your logic is right and that is one of the numerous reasons why Pago is no longer at the helm (Alleluia!!) Personally, I don’t place too much importance in the RS award itself but agree that these opportunities through the year that you mentioned were the ideal times to promote an Aisake for instance and give him a go. A reason for our lack of development has been the lack of genuine opportunities and mismanagement of our kids when they have been given a go (lack of faith and gametime). I am not surprised by the gamestyle Ratten has introduced and has its foundations through our good years under Brittain. He likes the possession game and I believe our list requires this type of approach. As for the negative comments regarding Bower, 
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| Author: | kingkerna [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:10 pm ] |
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Surely Bower is allowed to be criticised? If he wasn't young he wouldn't even be on our list next year - age is the one thing on his side. Of course I hope that he turns into a great player (or even a solid contributor) but at the moment he just doesn't play like a natural footballer such as Jackson and Jamison. Lets see what happens with him next year. |
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