It was his administration that got us punished with unprecedented salary cap penalties. It was his administration that brought in a "Carlton doesn't rebuild" mentality to the draft. It was he who got Pagan's signature right before he was outed. It was he who pissed off the AFL for decades, flaunted the rules as though the club was superior to the game itself (something McGuire is starting to do at Collingwood), just egging them on to grab us by the balls when the chance arose.

Exactly how much blame does big Jack deserve for our current predicament?

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WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

Old news. Our current predicament is crap enough, without reflecting on the shite that lumped us in it.

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I know. But really, as easy as it is to blame Pagan (which it truly is), Sticks and even Smorgan and Ian Collins, I don't think it should ever be forgotten who should truly be held responsible for the genesis of our demise (as well as Ron Evans of course).

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WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

Quite a lot, I suspect. The natives are already restless for a bit of the old 'Hair of the Dog...'(which scares me).

Next season will be 'interesting'.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Those days are gone. OK Big Jack reigned over a bad era.
The truth is the AFL had no idea when it fined us so heavily in monetary and player terms that is was going to almost lose one of its highest drawing clubs.
What has happened will never happen again because even if a team rorts the salary cap again there will NEVER be such dire consequences. The only reason Carlton survived at all is due to Collo and co making hard decisions in the first instance and secondly because the supporter base has been so loyal and voted with their wallets.
Now we have to rebuils slowly. The off field stuff is better and we have a reasonable list. We know they can play but they are just in shock and dismay and lack leadership. A few more good draft picks will give us additional talent for someone to mould into a great team.
We all know now it isn't going to be Denis but we can't go on blaming Jack for everything. He is working behind the scenes as I write to get more money and influence into the club. That's all we need to know. He will never again be in a position to influence decisions like he was so we don't have to worry about that.
Let's get over it and on with it.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Elliot was given the heave-ho at the end of 2002. The way I see in, in 2003 Jack was 100% to blame; in 2004 he was still probably 100% to blame; in 2005 about 75%, but by 2006 enough time had elapsed for a good coach, good development and good recruiting to have had an impact - still 50% Jack; and now in 2007 less than 50% Jack's fault and more than 50% current people at the club, especially Pagen. On that basis it's (obviously) time to go.

zero

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Virtually stuff all. We've moved on.

Drawing a long bow, his over empowering of Sticks to be the "kingmaker" is still the elephant in the room. Swannie must know this is garbage administration and it will be a test of his powers to see if he can get Dickie to accept and ACT on this.

That's about the best I can do for you.

Nicely put.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

My answer - complete, total, and utter

Which has made it Dick's job to reverse

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[Sam Jacobs] looks like a 7' Lance Whitnall, and [Mitch Robinson] looks like a 4' Lance Whitnall
(The SEN team during the Carlton v Cats 2009 pre-season match)

75% was 99% until Pagan added his 24% BUT THIS HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH. Add to the "I've found out why Carlton is so crap look at these draft picks etc etc" thread.

I am no fan of Johns, but it was five years ago now, time for the club to accept responsibility for he situation it is in.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I totally concur with your comments Donstuie.

You make some very valid and objective points. We are paying for the 'sins of our fathers'! Like or not thats how it is. Yes, we don't dwell or remain in the past, but it takes awhile for the stench to be removed from the shit that the CFC has been swimming in. Success in the past came at a high cost, do it bloody properly and we will reap the rewards and get to enjoy it and be able to build a dynasty. We have taken short cuts like or not. We have been made to eat humble pie folks. Buck the system and it bites you in the arse. Thats life!

It's important though to remember that even before the draft penalties we were in deep shit to begin with. The penalties were just the icing on the cake for Ron Evans and the AFL. But the thing about the Elliott era is the complete lack of adaptibility to the modern business of football, always going with the "We'll buy the best" mantra of previous decades.

Pikey on SEN just before talked about the 1999 draft where we gave up three picks for Mansfield (who we got some service out of at least) and O'Reilly (who was a waste), and that (I think he said this anyway) Geelong used those picks to pick up Joel Corey, Corey Enright and Cameron Ling. Sure, back then how could we have known, but the arrogance of our decision makers, and their stubborn refusal to prepare for the future still infuriates me today. So we had a team full of players who were on their last legs, with very few quality kids coming through (because we kept throwing our draft picks away for recycled talent), and then when the draft penalties came it was like an atom bomb. For this I blame Elliott alone.

I know, I know. It's all in the past, and our decisions since haven't been great either. But imagining Elliott sitting in his mansion, convinced that he did nothing wrong and was victimised, while the football club we hold so dear to our hearts disintegrates before our eyes, just makes me sick to my stomach.

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WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

time to move on. too much has happened since that time, which is now a very tired old story..

when you look at young children one day, you realise the way they are looking at the world is a generation removed from your own and that your world is a part of the generation that is closest to finishing.

This is what the Elliot years have become, a part of a tired old passing generation.

The minute our caretaker coach is announced is the minute that the future starts for Carlton. 2008 is starting tomorrow for us. No one has the slightest expectation of the surprises that are in store.

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My Blue Heaven

shut up blueman youll make me cry


But boy oh boy wil i go off!!!

I wouldn't single the children out there, blueman

ALL of the blame - an arrogant, short-sighted prick

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Hey Rocky; there are too many rabbits ... in China.

Trading draft picks now thats something I jumped on 7 years ago.

You missed the big one Paul Chapman with the pick we traded for Mansfield.

Can't find the link but years ago two Yorta Yorta elders placed a curse on Elliot & all that was close to him, after a racial slur he made.

I seriously think it worked. We're feeling the effects of it.

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#DonTheStash