When we won the flag in 1995 most people would have thought we would be playing finals for several years but less then 2 years we were out of the 8 after having one of the best side ever.

The team was still pretty much the same in 1997 and by 1998 and 1999 when we returned to the finals Williams,Madden,Dean,Kernahan,Hanna and Spalding were gone.

Some of the 1995 premiership players didn't blossom due to injuries like Whitehead,Clape and Pearce and other players we hope for like Welsh,Cook and Oliver.

We made finals in 2000 and 2001 but by 2002 only Mckay,Bradley,Manton,Ratten,Camporeale,Koutoufides and Christou remained from 1995 flag,most at their end of their footy while Lappin,Hickmott,Murphy,Allan,Beaumont,Hulme,Franchina and Whitnall were the next lot of good players but all probably B grade compare to the 1995 players while Hamill our best along with Whitnall at that time was gone with Silvagni,Sexton,Rice,Brown and Hogg hanging up the boots.


2002 Pagan comes in and see our mess we created,5 years down only Whitnall,Koutoufides and Lappin remain from what he had to work with while Houilhan,Fevola and Wiggins remain from the kids and all should be gone by 2008 except Houilhan and Fevola unless traded or one of the guys Whitnall,Koutoufides or Lappin gets a year more.

Forget the 2000,2001 and the 2002 and 2003 draft as Pagan had no control with this drafts and the penalty given to the club and just took a chance on recycle players and a few young kids and wanted results as the Carlton fans wanted a early fix missing finals.

Pagan has had 2004,2005 and 2006 draft picks to start a Team from scratch and i mean almost complete scratch unlike Brisbane,Hawthorn,Bulldogs or Geelong replacing players bit by bit,we trying to replace pretty much close to 22 plus making a list of 38,where at least close to 30 fight for a spot in the 22.

Realistically we are at least 5 years of having a premiership,so we should stick it out even if it takes another 3 years for the finals.

I'm not saying Pagan should coach next year,but I'm saying it would have been nearly impossible for any coach to do much better.

I personally would like a young Coach with new ideas and that guy is Guy Mckenna,who was the backbone of the Eagles dynasty in the 90s,they called him Superman when he played as he took footy very serious.

I like Michel Voss but for me he always had that smug look about him when he doesn't get his way,you might see a different person you don't like plus the incident in the news doesn't sit well for me.

The team will get there in years if we pick the right players and the people in the club,you just have to think ahead if we keep Fevola and there is a goalkicker doing well in the under 18 but is a later pick,you invest in him to replace Fevola when he is 30,the same thing for others like other clubs do.

these guys were well before 95.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Hey Rambo you will not get too many replies to your post due to the fact you make too much sense

I think you wont get many replies because most people cant be bothered going over the same crap. No one is saying we have the list for a tilt at the flag. What we are saying is that the coach is no getting the most out of our list.

Impossible for another coach to have done better? wtf? - My question is what coach would have done worse? Compare the onfield performances of 2002 (a year in which we were injury ravaged) with that of 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

As a team, we havent progressed one iota. The list has improved somewhat due to accumulation of early picks but that is all. The team has not improved, and arguably, has gone backwards.

The coach is responsible for the performance of the players - of all the players that have been on our list since pagan has gotten here, how many have consistently performed to their abilities? I'm not talking potential, I'm talking ability that they have demonstrated on field.

If a coach is unable to consistently get the best out of his players then he shouldnt be retained as coach.

I agree re Mckenna replacing Pagan at years end (pagan to coach out the year). I would think he is in the thoughts of the powers that be given Swann's collingwood exp.

RE Fevola. I am in favour of trading him away should we get a good deal. Top ten plus some-one or another pick (think tarrrant). My view is not based on recent issues but upon the fact that by the time CFC is a genuine flag threat Fevola will be on the wrong side of thirty. I don't believe he will have the discipline to play much past thirty.

I believe any player over 25 should be traded for whatever picks we can reasonably get.

I just believe that we have too many unaccountable players. The amount of goals we get scored against us by half back flankers, back pocket players and full backs is unbelievable.
Scotland
Lance
Fev
Betts
Kouta
Lappin

all of these players (plus many more) are simply not accountable enough, and not willing to match up on the defensive side.

I know these guys started before 1995 but all 3 guys were still on the 1995 Carlton list,Cook and Oliver got replaced in 1996 with Rohan Welsh taking Oliver number 3 and Cook number 18 taken by Justin Murphy in 1996, Welsh got replace in 1998 when Kris Massie took over his number.

We have improved from last year,sure we have had a few big losses and we could have won at least 8 games by now if Stevens was available and Fevola kept his cool and Whitnall didn't have his issues and injury plus his ever ending weight issues.

We won the spoon last year and are now playing kids,probably not in their position they are drafted,but I'm no coach same as all people on Talking Carlton,maybe they teaching them in certain positions before playing them to get more game time and experience,guys like Sean Grigg are not ready for AFL yet same as Josh Kennedy but they still teenagers but everyone on their case already.

We have 7 games with possibly 2 games there we should win or come close to but we need more top kids and if we can have 2 of the first 5 picks in the side and if we trade another star to get another in the top 16,we should do good in 2 or 3 years you would think but they need to be footy players this time not just kids with speed.

Although winning those 2 games will lose that golden opportunity so we should play the kids and play the other players like fevola in different positions,give him a run in the midfield,teach him how hard others work.

The team has improved several players,
Fisher,Carazzoo,Simpson,Waite,Walker and Ohailipin have all improved same goes for Murphy and Thornton and Bentick and Houilhan has improved also,you probably talking about the kids not developed yet in their second year yet and Russell,Betts,Wiggins should be showing more and the few others recycled players like Saddington,Bannister,teague,Mclaren and the recruit Ackland and Whitnall,Lappin and Kouta who were all close to their end + Fevola has been hot and cold with Scotland.

I was having a discussion with a Geelong supporter at work who believes if our guys keep getting flogged each week the way they are now, it could scar them psychologically.

The players basically forget how the win games or dont care about winning games because its an occuring event each week.

And if its true that the players aren't getting along with the coach then that needs to be dealt with right now, not at seasons end.

I believe if things continue the way they are now it will be harder to turn the players around into a full on winning team.

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BRING BACK PERFORMANCE BASE PAYMENTS !!!

It just highlights the argument of:

Win no more games and get say pick 1 and 3

or win two or three games and show some spirit and develop a bunch of kids but miss out on pick 1.

Depends which side of the fence you sit.

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Supporting the Blues No Matter What

Prime Evidence supporting this case => St Kilda

I wouldn't include Eddie in that list, but otherwise you make a good point

Why would that be occurring?

When we have control of the ball, where do you want your forwards to be?
Leading and giving an option or manning up?

Good forwards create space and work hard to give an option.
Good teams spot up the option and create opportunities and space for their fellow forwards.
We are instructed to get the ball in there as quickly as possible and hope for the best.

Perhaps if our players were drilled in retaining possession and were given licence to hold up the ball occasionally until a clear option can be created, the ball wouldnt be exiting our forward line at 100 miles an hour.
Nah, we'll just stick to our 70s gameplan. It will eventually come back in to vogue.

Carlton, the safari suit of the AFL.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I find the increasing push towards McKenna interesting. While I would prefer a Carlton bloke in charge (Rattan or Silvagni) , McKenna would fit nicely.
As a player he was genuinely tough, in exactly the same way as Kenny Hunter. I can't give higher praise than that.
I saw Darryn Tarczon hit him like a mack truck one day at Carlton and amazingly he got straight up , played on and played well.
If as a coach he can impart that mental toughness to his players, he will be very successful.
Actually ''Bluey's Blues'' doesn't sound too bad.

Pagan came in in 2003, not 02, by the way.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

it's a 2 way street, the players have just as much responsibility as the coach

While there's alot there I agree with, especially in the latter part of your post, there are parts I'm not sure about either.

Not convinced I'd be calling Lappin, Hickmott, Whitnall and Allan B Grade at the time. 3 of the 4 were AA and Hickmott would be A grade at any time.

As for the draft, Denis had some control. On top of getting Simmo, who could well be our captain next year, and Fisher in 2002 we also got Walker (PP) and Stevens (PSD) in 2003 as well as Scotland. Nice pick-ups for penalty years. most clubs would be wrapped with that. Problem was compounded by getting way too many re-trreads at the end of 2003.

Please don't say no coach wouldn't have done better.That's crap and insulting to the 15 other coaches, not to mention assistant coaches, going round. You could've done better and we wouldn't have had to pay you much, like the fortune we do Pagan. Most coaches would have had us playing with heart, passion and committment, with a decent, flexible game plan with players played in position. We don't ask premierships but we ask for the team to play to it's potential. We're not close to that. If that happened then there would be alot less than the 26 x 60pt+ losses, the records defeats inflicted by 10 clubs, and the 10 clubs that have kicked records scores in game sagainst us. Even though the Pre-Season is a lttle "mickey mouse" dud sides don't win it. Wasn't it after the Port Adelaide game that people were saying we had potentially one of the best young lists around. People change with the weather. I think alot could've done better than Pagan.

I think he was referring to DP starting at the end of 2002 and is now in his fifth year. Given draft penalties, his first real draft was 2004 Russell/Hartlett.

One of my mates played 10 years of VFL for Sandi for 3 flags under a few ex AFL players, and is convinced that you can't succeed without a strong experienced group pulling the kids along. I'm not saying that Lance, Kouta, Lappin are no good, they are simply no where near enough to do the job. We won't see success until we've got a core group of 8-14 senior players 25 and over.

Although it's great to have quality youth, no team has had success with the amount of youth we are displaying ATM.

My point is, we were trading picks and players 8 years ago for hacks. These are the picks that would've secured us 10 year players - not picks 75, 78 of the 2005 draft.

Those early picks could've given us 3-4 more 200
+ gamers that would have narrowed the gap by a mile. Blame the blokes who did this, not the ones who were left with the mess.

While you not wrong there, the current bloke has compounded our problems many times over. Besides coaching performance, we had the 2003 draft for hacks not to mention the plethora of crap, undersized ruckmen we keep getting. The only difference is we're at least stopped trading early picks for them.