TalkingCarlton :: View topic

I think the fact that the lack of intensity/fight comes from the 'leaders' of them the team is the major problem.

1. Kouta - barely out there and isn't on good terms with Pagan
2. Lance - enough said
3. Fev - ditto
4. Lappo - not really physical enough to lead by example, and that's fair enough
5. Scotland - his effort in not getting goal side of Davis and letting him run into goal after that mark was the most disgraceful thing I have seen in a Carlton jumper in some time. How was he even considered for the captaincy?
6. Thornton - Finger pointer
7. Houlihan - Just not that type and not hard enough.

So when you look at that list, who is going to stand up when the momentum swings against us and grab the game by the scruff?

Our kids work their collective backsides off, but physically they just can't impose themselves enough yet to swing momentum against teams with leadership and smarts.

So to answer your question (finally!!

), I think we are in for another tough year or two while our kids develope and impose themselves on the group, and this group of 'leaders' is weeded out. Still, i think it will be far more enjoyable to watch the kids emerge together with some light at the end of the tunnel.

There are two parts to the question

1. Intensity - it's hard on players trying to play at break neck speed all game. We don't have the ability or aren't being coached to play tempo footy to give our guys a chance to rest up and slow the run-on the opposition gets when our intensity drops off. No team can play fast attacking footy for 4 full quarters.

2. Team bonding - I have posted about this many times now and not much can be done until the end of the year and new coach, but we need to learn to play for each other and stop all this finger pointing and players playing for their position rather than the team. The way forward would be to fly the whole team to somehwere remote and challenge them to achieve something that requires a team effort to succeed and will expose some hime truths between the players, maybe something like climbing Mt Everest (metaphorically speaking) will teach them the value of mateship.

We cannot assess our list and no amounts of PP and No1 selections will give us success until they are able to play to a (effective and understood)gameplan and learn what it means to play as a team.

Steve_C7 wrote:

Great post there Steve....Constructive at it's best!

Can I suggest something else here. Perhaps we play well for Qtr 1 because we have done our homework and made plans etc. We go out to play and it's all working, we're playing well.

Over the course of the 1st Qtr our opponents work us out and at the Qtr time break they put things in place to counter. We dont have the people, the plans or the nous to change too much so we head back out for the 2nd qtr to soldier on and the opposition slowly start tearing holes in us until the holes become a floodgate.

I think Denis has accepted that he is vastly approaching his expiry date.

As for Murph not happy, is this correct or just a rumour??

He has gone backwards a little this year in my opinion also.

We do need a new coach to rejuvenate the place. On and off the field!

Author:	linchpin [ Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Intensity
If you could make a DVD of just our first quarters, you would think we are sitting in the upper reaches of the competition. Not just a struggling also ran! I hear Denis talking about the physicality of the Swans, the bigger bodies etc, and giving us reasons, (not excuses) about the loss. But here are some questions? 1, Why can we jump sides and start extremely well every week? 2, Do other sides treat us with contempt, and wait for 'us' to drop off? 3, When do we start expecting or demanding 4 quarter efforts? 4, By giving the kids a reason for there lack of sustainability, does this give them a false sense of security? Such as: 8, "That is not a criticism, that is a part of their development and growth." 5, If we are just going through the motions and waiting for the development, we now are looking at retirements and trades involving of Kouta, Whitnall, Fevvy etc, who do we replace them with? More kids to develop?? More time in the bottom reaches?? 6, Is the coaches and the associated staff' message getting through for 4 quarters? If not, why the bloody hell not? 7, Are the boys expecting the decline during the game? Who is building self esteem, belief and addressing the mental side if there game? 8, Basic skill errors seem to cost us week in, week out? Who is trying to eradicate these? There seems to be a lot of questions, but these are a start.

Author:	blueman [ Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:
The keys to unlock this mystery are in the hands of the new young coach. It is a mental thing, which will be cured, but over the course of a season.

Author:	TheGame [ Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:
The big bodies excuse is a load of shit. We dominated Freo at the stoppages winning most of the hard ball and they thrashed us. We lose because we play one paced predictable footy.

Author:	Punter22 [ Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:
I think the fact that the lack of intensity/fight comes from the 'leaders' of them the team is the major problem. 1. Kouta - barely out there and isn't on good terms with Pagan 2. Lance - enough said 3. Fev - ditto 4. Lappo - not really physical enough to lead by example, and that's fair enough 5. Scotland - his effort in not getting goal side of Davis and letting him run into goal after that mark was the most disgraceful thing I have seen in a Carlton jumper in some time. How was he even considered for the captaincy? 6. Thornton - Finger pointer 7. Houlihan - Just not that type and not hard enough. So when you look at that list, who is going to stand up when the momentum swings against us and grab the game by the scruff? Our kids work their collective backsides off, but physically they just can't impose themselves enough yet to swing momentum against teams with leadership and smarts. So to answer your question (finally!! ), I think we are in for another tough year or two while our kids develope and impose themselves on the group, and this group of 'leaders' is weeded out. Still, i think it will be far more enjoyable to watch the kids emerge together with some light at the end of the tunnel.

Author:	Hunter u Champ [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:10 am ]
Post subject:
We have tendered to start well and appear to fall away as the game progresses. I do think that as the season has progressed, teams have adapted quickly to our structures and our some what feeble game plan. They have worked over the weaknesses and broken down the game plan and there has been little done to negate this when it happens. So i think the group as a whole have attempted to maintain their intensity throughout but have lacked structure and strong leadership.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Intensity http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17027	Page 1 of 2

Author:	keogh [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:06 am ]
Post subject:
Punter22 wrote: I think the fact that the lack of intensity/fight comes from the 'leaders' of them the team is the major problem. 1. Kouta - barely out there and isn't on good terms with Pagan 2. Lance - enough said 3. Fev - ditto 4. Lappo - not really physical enough to lead by example, and that's fair enough 5. Scotland - his effort in not getting goal side of Davis and letting him run into goal after that mark was the most disgraceful thing I have seen in a Carlton jumper in some time. How was he even considered for the captaincy? 6. Thornton - Finger pointer 7. Houlihan - Just not that type and not hard enough. So when you look at that list, who is going to stand up when the momentum swings against us and grab the game by the scruff? Our kids work their collective backsides off, but physically they just can't impose themselves enough yet to swing momentum against teams with leadership and smarts. So to answer your question (finally!! ), I think we are in for another tough year or two while our kids develope and impose themselves on the group, and this group of 'leaders' is weeded out. Still, i think it will be far more enjoyable to watch the kids emerge together with some light at the end of the tunnel. Yep ditto to this one

Author:	Rhys26 [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:55 am ]
Post subject:
Punter22 wrote: I think the fact that the lack of intensity/fight comes from the 'leaders' of them the team is the major problem. 1. Kouta - barely out there and isn't on good terms with Pagan 2. Lance - enough said 3. Fev - ditto 4. Lappo - not really physical enough to lead by example, and that's fair enough 5. Scotland - his effort in not getting goal side of Davis and letting him run into goal after that mark was the most disgraceful thing I have seen in a Carlton jumper in some time. How was he even considered for the captaincy? 6. Thornton - Finger pointer 7. Houlihan - Just not that type and not hard enough. So when you look at that list, who is going to stand up when the momentum swings against us and grab the game by the scruff? Our kids work their collective backsides off, but physically they just can't impose themselves enough yet to swing momentum against teams with leadership and smarts. So to answer your question (finally!! ), I think we are in for another tough year or two while our kids develope and impose themselves on the group, and this group of 'leaders' is weeded out. Still, i think it will be far more enjoyable to watch the kids emerge together with some light at the end of the tunnel. Of that group I reckon that Houlihan has been the best of a very ordinary list of leaders. some of his close down jobs this season have been great. Keeping Nick Davis under control on the weekend was an example.

Author:	buzzalenko [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:02 am ]
Post subject:
i wonder what he would be worth as a trade at season's end?

Author:	MIL [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Lack of any game plan other than plan A is the simple answer (what is our plan A BTW ?). Once teams get used to what we're doing, its game over. Geez we don't even appear to have a plan for kick ins FFS !! A new coach, and with it a decent modern game plan and set routines etc, will fix our "intensity" problem.

Author:	Steve_C7 [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:
There are two parts to the question 1. Intensity - it's hard on players trying to play at break neck speed all game. We don't have the ability or aren't being coached to play tempo footy to give our guys a chance to rest up and slow the run-on the opposition gets when our intensity drops off. No team can play fast attacking footy for 4 full quarters. 2. Team bonding - I have posted about this many times now and not much can be done until the end of the year and new coach, but we need to learn to play for each other and stop all this finger pointing and players playing for their position rather than the team. The way forward would be to fly the whole team to somehwere remote and challenge them to achieve something that requires a team effort to succeed and will expose some hime truths between the players, maybe something like climbing Mt Everest (metaphorically speaking) will teach them the value of mateship. We cannot assess our list and no amounts of PP and No1 selections will give us success until they are able to play to a (effective and understood)gameplan and learn what it means to play as a team.

Author:	Drewgirl [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:
They should do the Kokoda trail and learn about mateship and working together.

Author:	Donstuie [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:
Notice that we almost always play well up until Denis' qtr-time address, and then play like shite afterwards. Coincidence?

Author:	linchpin [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Steve_C7 wrote: There are two parts to the question 1. Intensity - it's hard on players trying to play at break neck speed all game. We don't have the ability or aren't being coached to play tempo footy to give our guys a chance to rest up and slow the run-on the opposition gets when our intensity drops off. No team can play fast attacking footy for 4 full quarters. 2. Team bonding - I have posted about this many times now and not much can be done until the end of the year and new coach, but we need to learn to play for each other and stop all this finger pointing and players playing for their position rather than the team. The way forward would be to fly the whole team to somehwere remote and challenge them to achieve something that requires a team effort to succeed and will expose some hime truths between the players, maybe something like climbing Mt Everest (metaphorically speaking) will teach them the value of mateship. We cannot assess our list and no amounts of PP and No1 selections will give us success until they are able to play to a (effective and understood)gameplan and learn what it means to play as a team. Great post there Steve....Constructive at it's best!

Author:	camel [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:03 am ]
Post subject:
linchpin wrote: Steve_C7 wrote: There are two parts to the question 1. Intensity - it's hard on players trying to play at break neck speed all game. We don't have the ability or aren't being coached to play tempo footy to give our guys a chance to rest up and slow the run-on the opposition gets when our intensity drops off. No team can play fast attacking footy for 4 full quarters. 2. Team bonding - I have posted about this many times now and not much can be done until the end of the year and new coach, but we need to learn to play for each other and stop all this finger pointing and players playing for their position rather than the team. The way forward would be to fly the whole team to somehwere remote and challenge them to achieve something that requires a team effort to succeed and will expose some hime truths between the players, maybe something like climbing Mt Everest (metaphorically speaking) will teach them the value of mateship. We cannot assess our list and no amounts of PP and No1 selections will give us success until they are able to play to a (effective and understood)gameplan and learn what it means to play as a team. Great post there Steve....Constructive at it's best! Agreed. I'd like to continue the discussion on point #1 though. I'm not sure whether it's a Pagan issue or a player issue, or a combination including a healthy dose of Steve's suggestion in point #2, but seeing the players start so well last weekend but fade so dramatically, so quickly is bitterly disappointing. It might be difficult to play at the intensity shown early for 4 full quarters, but how about at least getting past quarter time?! The positive spin from last week tells us that when we play accountable and brutally honest football by attacking the ball and our opponents hard that we can indeed match it with one of the mentally tougher sides there is. Therefore, the playing list can't be completely rubbish. The negative spin just says, well if the team is only going to, or able to, play like that for 20 minutes or so each week then why do they even bother? The only conclusion I can some to is that there must be something rotten in the state of Denmark. Hardly an earth shattering conclusion I know. Is it something bubbling away eating at the team, is it something not that noticeable almost in the background, or is it simply something in the coaches box? Like a few on here I was, if not a Pagan apologist, at least a suck it and see supporter, but I cannot find one single reason for him to continue on. While it could cost us a #1 pick, I think it will say more about the intestinal fortitude of our club if Pagan sees out the year. The club has sent a message to it's players, via Fev, that they won't accept poor team play, how about sending a message to the players, the fans, and the broader football public that we won't accept continual poor coaching efforts either!!! He has to go, it's that simple. If Chris Connolly was casting a dark cloud over Fremantle, Pagan is signalling armageddon is nearing at Princes Park!

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	ScottSaunders [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject:
well done CB and others, couldnt agree more. i started to think that the thought of getting the PP is a good thing, but after hearind the rumour of murphy being unhappy and looking elsewhere, the change needs to happen now, not in 3 weeks, not at the end of the season, it needs to happen now. if we lose the pp, so be it, but the kids out our club, need to start enjoying themselves otherwise there is no reason for them to want to play for their club. the time is now for pagan to go, and the club to implement these changes being discussed, its no good waiting until next year anymore, lets try and harness what has been a terrible year (IMO our worst, whilst showing some signs of improvement, some of our players have gone backwards) i tell you, the thought of losing players like Murphy makes me sick, it would just about be the final nail in the coffin. If Pagan is at the club next year, well, im not sure im going to be a member, i just wont be able to do it. Im numb to the losing now

Author:	2ndeffort [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:04 am ]
Post subject:
Can I suggest something else here. Perhaps we play well for Qtr 1 because we have done our homework and made plans etc. We go out to play and it's all working, we're playing well. Over the course of the 1st Qtr our opponents work us out and at the Qtr time break they put things in place to counter. We dont have the people, the plans or the nous to change too much so we head back out for the 2nd qtr to soldier on and the opposition slowly start tearing holes in us until the holes become a floodgate.

Author:	camel [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:48 am ]
Post subject:
That view probably has some merit, but on occasions the drop off has been so dramatic it's hard to think that view is the only reason.

Author:	George Harris [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:49 am ]
Post subject:
2ndeffort wrote: Can I suggest something else here. Perhaps we play well for Qtr 1 because we have done our homework and made plans etc. We go out to play and it's all working, we're playing well. Over the course of the 1st Qtr our opponents work us out and at the Qtr time break they put things in place to counter. We dont have the people, the plans or the nous to change too much so we head back out for the 2nd qtr to soldier on and the opposition slowly start tearing holes in us until the holes become a floodgate. Spot on! (And please change that ugly avatar.)

Author:	linchpin [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:
I think Denis has accepted that he is vastly approaching his expiry date. As for Murph not happy, is this correct or just a rumour?? He has gone backwards a little this year in my opinion also. We do need a new coach to rejuvenate the place. On and off the field!

Author:	Elwood Blues1 [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:
linchpin wrote: I think Denis has accepted that he is vastly approaching his expiry date. As for Murph not happy, is this correct or just a rumour?? He has gone backwards a little this year in my opinion also. We do need a new coach to rejuvenate the place. On and off the field! The tagging has had a big effect on Murphys form.....he has been knocked around and taken a pounding physically but he still keeps coming back for more which shows he is very strong mentally. Believe his father fired up in the rooms after one game and wanted to go public with what his son has been copping and have a go at the umps/AFL etc but was calmed down by Greg Swann and others...... Interesting that Melbourne have reacted to Davey getting similar treatment and that coach Riley said they will be looking after Davey on the field more. I think we need to do the same with our young blokes, thats why I am a Fev supporter because he will go in and support his young teammates and show some spirit...