Welsh,Cook and Oliver.

When we won the flag in 1995 most people would have thought we would be playing finals for several years but less then 2 years we were out of the 8 after having one of the best side ever.

The team was still pretty much the same in 1997 and by 1998 and 1999 when we returned to the finals Williams,Madden,Dean,Kernahan,Hanna and Spalding were gone.

Some of the 1995 premiership players didn't blossom due to injuries like Whitehead,Clape and Pearce and other players we hope for like Welsh,Cook and Oliver.

We made finals in 2000 and 2001 but by 2002 only Mckay,Bradley,Manton,Ratten,Camporeale,Koutoufides and Christou remained from 1995 flag,most at their end of their footy while Lappin,Hickmott,Murphy,Allan,Beaumont,Hulme,Franchina and Whitnall were the next lot of good players but all probably B grade compare to the 1995 players while Hamill our best along with Whitnall at that time was gone with Silvagni,Sexton,Rice,Brown and Hogg hanging up the boots.


2002 Pagan comes in and see our mess we created,5 years down only Whitnall,Koutoufides and Lappin remain from what he had to work with while Houilhan,Fevola and Wiggins remain from the kids and all should be gone by 2008 except Houilhan and Fevola unless traded or one of the guys Whitnall,Koutoufides or Lappin gets a year more.

Forget the 2000,2001 and the 2002 and 2003 draft as Pagan had no control with this drafts and the penalty given to the club and just took a chance on recycle players and a few young kids and wanted results as the Carlton fans wanted a early fix missing finals.

Pagan has had 2004,2005 and 2006 draft picks to start a Team from scratch and i mean almost complete scratch unlike Brisbane,Hawthorn,Bulldogs or Geelong replacing players bit by bit,we trying to replace pretty much close to 22 plus making a list of 38,where at least close to 30 fight for a spot in the 22.

Realistically we are at least 5 years of having a premiership,so we should stick it out even if it takes another 3 years for the finals.

I'm not saying Pagan should coach next year,but I'm saying it would have been nearly impossible for any coach to do much better.

I personally would like a young Coach with new ideas and that guy is Guy Mckenna,who was the backbone of the Eagles dynasty in the 90s,they called him Superman when he played as he took footy very serious.

I like Michel Voss but for me he always had that smug look about him when he doesn't get his way,you might see a different person you don't like plus the incident in the news doesn't sit well for me.

The team will get there in years if we pick the right players and the people in the club,you just have to think ahead if we keep Fevola and there is a goalkicker doing well in the under 18 but is a later pick,you invest in him to replace Fevola when he is 30,the same thing for others like other clubs do.

these guys were well before 95.

I think you wont get many replies because most people cant be bothered going over the same crap. No one is saying we have the list for a tilt at the flag. What we are saying is that the coach is no getting the most out of our list.

Impossible for another coach to have done better? wtf? - My question is what coach would have done worse? Compare the onfield performances of 2002 (a year in which we were injury ravaged) with that of 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

As a team, we havent progressed one iota. The list has improved somewhat due to accumulation of early picks but that is all. The team has not improved, and arguably, has gone backwards.

The coach is responsible for the performance of the players - of all the players that have been on our list since pagan has gotten here, how many have consistently performed to their abilities? I'm not talking potential, I'm talking ability that they have demonstrated on field.

If a coach is unable to consistently get the best out of his players then he shouldnt be retained as coach.

I just believe that we have too many unaccountable players. The amount of goals we get scored against us by half back flankers, back pocket players and full backs is unbelievable.
Scotland
Lance
Fev
Betts
Kouta
Lappin

all of these players (plus many more) are simply not accountable enough, and not willing to match up on the defensive side.

I just believe that we have too many unaccountable players. The amount of goals we get scored against us by half back flankers, back pocket players and full backs is unbelievable.

I think you wont get many replies because most people cant be bothered going over the same crap. No one is saying we have the list for a tilt at the flag. What we are saying is that the coach is no getting the most out of our list.

Impossible for another coach to have done better? wtf? - My question is what coach would have done worse? Compare the onfield performances of 2002 (a year in which we were injury ravaged) with that of 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

As a team, we havent progressed one iota. The list has improved somewhat due to accumulation of early picks but that is all. The team has not improved, and arguably, has gone backwards.

The coach is responsible for the performance of the players - of all the players that have been on our list since pagan has gotten here, how many have consistently performed to their abilities? I'm not talking potential, I'm talking ability that they have demonstrated on field.

If a coach is unable to consistently get the best out of his players then he shouldnt be retained as coach.

When we won the flag in 1995 most people would have thought we would be playing finals for several years but less then 2 years we were out of the 8 after having one of the best side ever.

The team was still pretty much the same in 1997 and by 1998 and 1999 when we returned to the finals Williams,Madden,Dean,Kernahan,Hanna and Spalding were gone.

Some of the 1995 premiership players didn't blossom due to injuries like Whitehead,Clape and Pearce and other players we hope for like Welsh,Cook and Oliver.

We made finals in 2000 and 2001 but by 2002 only Mckay,Bradley,Manton,Ratten,Camporeale,Koutoufides and Christou remained from 1995 flag,most at their end of their footy while Lappin,Hickmott,Murphy,Allan,Beaumont,Hulme,Franchina and Whitnall were the next lot of good players but all probably B grade compare to the 1995 players while Hamill our best along with Whitnall at that time was gone with Silvagni,Sexton,Rice,Brown and Hogg hanging up the boots.


2002 Pagan comes in and see our mess we created,5 years down only Whitnall,Koutoufides and Lappin remain from what he had to work with while Houilhan,Fevola and Wiggins remain from the kids and all should be gone by 2008 except Houilhan and Fevola unless traded or one of the guys Whitnall,Koutoufides or Lappin gets a year more.

Forget the 2000,2001 and the 2002 and 2003 draft as Pagan had no control with this drafts and the penalty given to the club and just took a chance on recycle players and a few young kids and wanted results as the Carlton fans wanted a early fix missing finals.

Pagan has had 2004,2005 and 2006 draft picks to start a Team from scratch and i mean almost complete scratch unlike Brisbane,Hawthorn,Bulldogs or Geelong replacing players bit by bit,we trying to replace pretty much close to 22 plus making a list of 38,where at least close to 30 fight for a spot in the 22.

Realistically we are at least 5 years of having a premiership,so we should stick it out even if it takes another 3 years for the finals.

I'm not saying Pagan should coach next year,but I'm saying it would have been nearly impossible for any coach to do much better.

I personally would like a young Coach with new ideas and that guy is Guy Mckenna,who was the backbone of the Eagles dynasty in the 90s,they called him Superman when he played as he took footy very serious.

I like Michel Voss but for me he always had that smug look about him when he doesn't get his way,you might see a different person you don't like plus the incident in the news doesn't sit well for me.

The team will get there in years if we pick the right players and the people in the club,you just have to think ahead if we keep Fevola and there is a goalkicker doing well in the under 18 but is a later pick,you invest in him to replace Fevola when he is 30,the same thing for others like other clubs do.

Pagan came in in 2003, not 02, by the way.

As for the draft, Denis had some control. On top of getting Simmo, who could well be our captain next year, and Fisher in 2002 we also got Walker (PP) and Stevens (PSD) in 2003 as well as Scotland. Nice pick-ups for penalty years. most clubs would be wrapped with that. Problem was compounded by getting way too many re-trreads at the end of 2003.

One of my mates played 10 years of VFL for Sandi for 3 flags under a few ex AFL players, and is convinced that you can't succeed without a strong experienced group pulling the kids along. I'm not saying that Lance, Kouta, Lappin are no good, they are simply no where near enough to do the job. We won't see success until we've got a core group of 8-14 senior players 25 and over.

Although it's great to have quality youth, no team has had success with the amount of youth we are displaying ATM.

My point is, we were trading picks and players 8 years ago for hacks. These are the picks that would've secured us 10 year players - not picks 75, 78 of the 2005 draft.

Those early picks could've given us 3-4 more 200
+ gamers that would have narrowed the gap by a mile. Blame the blokes who did this, not the ones who were left with the mess.