TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Fev & Barry Hall

What we need to do is do what Sydney has done to Barry Hall, that is change how the club judges Fevola's performance and realign Fev's own expectations to that of the club.

The club needs to tell Fev (and maybe even publicise this fact) that no longer is he judged purely on the number of goals he kicks, rather a heavy empahsise is now placed on how many goals assist he gives, how many tackles he puts on inside 50 and how many 1% he contributes. I have a feeling Fev is judging his own contribution based PURELY on the number of goals he kick in a game and with his recent lean numbers (and us still winning the bulldogs & Port game), he may feel that the team no longer need him and that he was not a true contributor to the win.

So by realigning and clearly explaining the club, team and personal expectations on Fev (by telling him that the club has changed to a stage where the club now need to spread the goal kickers and the number of goals he kick in a game is no longer the 'KEY' benchmark), I think a lot of pressure that Fev places on himself (and thus the frustrations he is showing on ground) will dissipate and we will automatically gain a renewed and valuable member of the team.

It is all about realigning his own performance measures and that of the club on Fev and making a concrete commitment to this realignment (via his contract).

In summary:

- Change his performance benchmark
- Communicate this change clearly
- Commit to this change via his contract (amend his performance measures if required)
- Reinforce this new benchmark

Once that is done, I believe that his performance will improve out of sight. Itâ€™s a people game. Get his head right, we will have one of the best player in the league wearing the navy blue jumper.

Fev, don't give up on the blues and Pagan, make the changes suggested!

exsing, Fev is no different from any other staff in any companies. People need to know what is expected from them and how they are judged in terms of performance. Once they have a clear goal and know exactly what they need to achieve to meet their performance target, they will strive for it. It is about people management.

In this case, the idea is that Fevola's own measurement of his performance is no longer relevant (whereas it was in the past) and he needs to be told and the club needs to reaffirm this by setting in concrete (change in his performance hurdles).

It is no different to running a business. The goal post shifts and this must be communicated and told to staff. To simply expect the staff to "KNOW" would be mis-management. Communication and expectations management is the key. That is what we are saying in this instance.

the point is, everyone is different and hence need different management style.

As I said, Fev's main aim is to kick goal (he thinks). He feels that he is assessed by this criteria. If you change the criteria and change the benchmark, he will change his behaviour.

He is employed as a footballer, but each footballer have different roles to play. Traditionally, full forwards kick goals. Now, that has changed.

In an ideal world, everyone would be natural team players. but reality is, in both football, corporate environment, etc that does not happen. People need to be managed with benchmarks in place to 'encourage' these behaviours. People don't necessarily behave naturally as you expect. Then you can argue that why employ someone like that if they are not team players? B/c he has a talent that can swing games.

What works for Marc Murphy will not necessarily work for Fevola. The point is, different management style for different people.

This is a good thread...pity I have the attention span of a 3 year old, and can't be bothered reading it all.

Anyway, continue with all of your good points.

PS: Early contender for POW, Koutamagic

However, if you want someone who is say...female, blonde, long legs, D cup boobs, looks like Jessica Alba, with a nice ass, then yes. You need to make that clear to your recruiter.

exsing wrote:

However, if you want someone who is say...female, blonde, long legs, D cup boobs, looks like Jessica Alba, with a nice ass, then yes. You need to make that clear to your recruiter.

If we think losing Fev would hurt our marketing, exsing you've just come up with the perfect replacement...

With that at full forward we'd surpass West Coast & Adelaide's memberships.

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Fev & Barry Hall
What we need to do is do what Sydney has done to Barry Hall, that is change how the club judges Fevola's performance and realign Fev's own expectations to that of the club. The club needs to tell Fev (and maybe even publicise this fact) that no longer is he judged purely on the number of goals he kicks, rather a heavy empahsise is now placed on how many goals assist he gives, how many tackles he puts on inside 50 and how many 1% he contributes. I have a feeling Fev is judging his own contribution based PURELY on the number of goals he kick in a game and with his recent lean numbers (and us still winning the bulldogs & Port game), he may feel that the team no longer need him and that he was not a true contributor to the win. So by realigning and clearly explaining the club, team and personal expectations on Fev (by telling him that the club has changed to a stage where the club now need to spread the goal kickers and the number of goals he kick in a game is no longer the 'KEY' benchmark), I think a lot of pressure that Fev places on himself (and thus the frustrations he is showing on ground) will dissipate and we will automatically gain a renewed and valuable member of the team. It is all about realigning his own performance measures and that of the club on Fev and making a concrete commitment to this realignment (via his contract). In summary: - Change his performance benchmark - Communicate this change clearly - Commit to this change via his contract (amend his performance measures if required) - Reinforce this new benchmark Once that is done, I believe that his performance will improve out of sight. Itâ€™s a people game. Get his head right, we will have one of the best player in the league wearing the navy blue jumper. Fev, don't give up on the blues and Pagan, make the changes suggested!

Author:	Taff [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fev & Barry Hall
Koutamagic wrote: What we need to do is do what Sydney has done to Barry Hall, that is change how the club judges Fevola's performance and realign Fev's own expectations to that of the club. The club needs to tell Fev (and maybe even publicise this fact) that no longer is he judged purely on the number of goals he kicks, rather a heavy empahsise is now placed on how many goals assist he gives, how many tackles he puts on inside 50 and how many 1% he contributes. I have a feeling Fev is judging his own contribution based PURELY on the number of goals he kick in a game and with his recent lean numbers (and us still winning the bulldogs & Port game), he may feel that the team no longer need him and that he was not a true contributor to the win. So by realigning and clearly explaining the club, team and personal expectations on Fev (by telling him that the club has changed to a stage where the club now need to spread the goal kickers and the number of goals he kick in a game is no longer the 'KEY' benchmark), I think a lot of pressure that Fev places on himself (and thus the frustrations he is showing on ground) will dissipate and we will automatically gain a renewed and valuable member of the team. It is all about realigning his own performance measures and that of the club on Fev and making a concrete commitment to this realignment (via his contract). In summary: - Change his performance benchmark - Communicate this change clearly - Commit to this change via his contract (amend his performance measures if required) - Reinforce this new benchmark Once that is done, I believe that his performance will improve out of sight. Itâ€™s a people game. Get his head right, we will have one of the best player in the league wearing the navy blue jumper. Fev, don't give up on the blues and Pagan, make the changes suggested! Excellent post!

Author:	thedominator [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:
Good post. But don't bother addressing Pagan to communicate this across to Fev, we all know Pagan's communication skills with the players are primitive. A new coach together with what you have suggested would be just the tonic Fev needs.

Author:	ScottSaunders [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:
good post, but that is the problem as far as im concerned. these solutions should not be coming from us. they should be tried, i dont think Fev is not much of a problem child that we "just give up" but these type of suggestions arent coming from the club/coach. and all good coaches will do what they can try what they can to get the best out of their players. pagan is almost of - if it doesnt work, i give up. the other thing about the Fev v Hall comparison, again is the coach. Roos goes into bat for Hall, saying something along the lines of "its got to be frustrating for Barry, he gets a rough go etc.." takes the fine and moves on, but the most valuble part of it is this "it sends a message to the player that the coach is behind him 100%" what do we get from Pagan? like everything else, nothing. im really frustrated with Pagan at the moment, alot of our problems extend directly back to him.

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm concerned that everyone will take the easy way out (by trading him) whereas a simple action like this should resolve the issue. Pagan and Fevola have a good relationship. Pagan has done in my opinion, remarkably well with Fevola. Normally players move b/c they have frustrations with the coach, players, lack of game time or game plan doesn't suit their playing styel. I think Fevola does not have frustrations with any of these points. His frustrations relates to his own contribution / performance. He is a very proud man and needs to feel wanted and feel like he contributes to team success. If we get relieve this 'pressure' he places on himself, I think we have a winner. Simple, but it is often easily overlooked in these circumstances, not just in footy environments, but also in corporate and social environments.

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Fev & Barry Hall http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16856	Page 1 of 2

Author:	bluehammer [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:
Perhaps, like some of us Fev has some coin sitting with the bookies that will come back 5 fold if he manages to take home the Coleman...

Author:	buzzaaaah [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:
Up till the Hawthorn game, Fev was doing the chasing and tackling. The last 2 games he has dropped his bundle. The captaincy issue has contributed which reflects poorly on him. But he can bounce back and I hope he does

Author:	exsing [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fev & Barry Hall
Koutamagic wrote: What we need to do is do what Sydney has done to Barry Hall, that is change how the club judges Fevola's performance and realign Fev's own expectations to that of the club. The club needs to tell Fev (and maybe even publicise this fact) that no longer is he judged purely on the number of goals he kicks, rather a heavy empahsise is now placed on how many goals assist he gives, how many tackles he puts on inside 50 and how many 1% he contributes. I have a feeling Fev is judging his own contribution based PURELY on the number of goals he kick in a game and with his recent lean numbers (and us still winning the bulldogs & Port game), he may feel that the team no longer need him and that he was not a true contributor to the win. So by realigning and clearly explaining the club, team and personal expectations on Fev (by telling him that the club has changed to a stage where the club now need to spread the goal kickers and the number of goals he kick in a game is no longer the 'KEY' benchmark), I think a lot of pressure that Fev places on himself (and thus the frustrations he is showing on ground) will dissipate and we will automatically gain a renewed and valuable member of the team. It is all about realigning his own performance measures and that of the club on Fev and making a concrete commitment to this realignment (via his contract). In summary: - Change his performance benchmark - Communicate this change clearly - Commit to this change via his contract (amend his performance measures if required) - Reinforce this new benchmark Once that is done, I believe that his performance will improve out of sight. Itâ€™s a people game. Get his head right, we will have one of the best player in the league wearing the navy blue jumper. Fev, don't give up on the blues and Pagan, make the changes suggested! Koutamagic, I see your point. However, the common problem applies in your post. It seems like Fev NEEDS to be told what to do, and how to do it. Great players all have one thing in common. They are mature, responsible and committed players regardless of the situation. Fev has been nurtured and given chances for many years. It doesn't seem logical to me that a player needs to be spoon fed the whole way in order to play good responsible footy. He is 26 yrs old. He is not a first year player who is learning the ropes. He shouldn't be told how to play his footy. He has an incredible talent, which for some reason he does not exploit fully, by doing some stupid things onfield. Now, you can blame the delivery, the team structure, the coach etc all you want, but an individual can only be judged by what HE does on the field regardless of the situation. He shouldn't need to be told that he needs to create opportunities for others if he can't kick a goal. That should be a given.

Author:	camel [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:
I'll tell you all exactly what we need to fix this problem... ...another Fevola thread!

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:
exsing, Fev is no different from any other staff in any companies. People need to know what is expected from them and how they are judged in terms of performance. Once they have a clear goal and know exactly what they need to achieve to meet their performance target, they will strive for it. It is about people management. In this case, the idea is that Fevola's own measurement of his performance is no longer relevant (whereas it was in the past) and he needs to be told and the club needs to reaffirm this by setting in concrete (change in his performance hurdles). It is no different to running a business. The goal post shifts and this must be communicated and told to staff. To simply expect the staff to "KNOW" would be mis-management. Communication and expectations management is the key. That is what we are saying in this instance.

Author:	exsing [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:
Koutamagic wrote: exsing, Fev is no different from any other staff in any companies. People need to know what is expected from them and how they are judged in terms of performance. Once they have a clear goal and know exactly what they need to achieve to meet their performance target, they will strive for it. It is about people management. In this case, the idea is that Fevola's own measurement of his performance is no longer relevant (whereas it was in the past) and he needs to be told and the club needs to reaffirm this by setting in concrete (change in his performance hurdles). It is no different to running a business. The goal post shifts and this must be communicated and told to staff. To simply expect the staff to "KNOW" would be mis-management. Communication and expectations management is the key. That is what we are saying in this instance. Disagree there again. Playing football without the mental snaps is a basic job description. It's like saying to your employee, "you are hired as my recruiter". Now, he doesn't need to be told that his core job is to hire people who can do the job. That is a given. However, if you want someone who is say...female, blonde, long legs, D cup boobs, looks like Jessica Alba, with a nice ass, then yes. You need to make that clear to your recruiter. Just like Fev. He is employed to play a game of footy to win games. He shouldn't need to be told to do the team thing when the situation calls for it. However, if the coach decides he wants Fev to become a CHB and rebound off half back blah blah blah, then yes, it should be communicated to Fev that this change is happening. But to put into his contract to say he shouldn't kick goals when the opportunity is not there but to create opportunities for others, is plain ludicrous.

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:
the point is, everyone is different and hence need different management style. As I said, Fev's main aim is to kick goal (he thinks). He feels that he is assessed by this criteria. If you change the criteria and change the benchmark, he will change his behaviour. He is employed as a footballer, but each footballer have different roles to play. Traditionally, full forwards kick goals. Now, that has changed. In an ideal world, everyone would be natural team players. but reality is, in both football, corporate environment, etc that does not happen. People need to be managed with benchmarks in place to 'encourage' these behaviours. People don't necessarily behave naturally as you expect. Then you can argue that why employ someone like that if they are not team players? B/c he has a talent that can swing games. What works for Marc Murphy will not necessarily work for Fevola. The point is, different management style for different people.

Author:	blueboysean [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:
This is a good thread...pity I have the attention span of a 3 year old, and can't be bothered reading it all. Anyway, continue with all of your good points. PS: Early contender for POW, Koutamagic

Author:	exsing [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:
Koutamagic wrote: the point is, everyone is different and hence need different management style. As I said, Fev's main aim is to kick goal (he thinks). He feels that he is assessed by this criteria. If you change the criteria and change the benchmark, he will change his behaviour. He is employed as a footballer, but each footballer have different roles to play. Traditionally, full forwards kick goals. Now, that has changed. In an ideal world, everyone would be natural team players. but reality is, in both football, corporate environment, etc that does not happen. People need to be managed with benchmarks in place to 'encourage' these behaviours. People don't necessarily behave naturally as you expect. Then you can argue that why employ someone like that if they are not team players? B/c he has a talent that can swing games. What works for Marc Murphy will not necessarily work for Fevola. The point is, different management style for different people. My point exactly as to why we need to trade him now. If he is as fickle and as different as you describe, it is a risk to keep him for 2008. What if the encouragement and change in style sits well with him this year but not the next? He could decide to leave and go to a team where he can be the central focus as a goal kicker. Would you be willing to take the risk in that and have him walk to the PSD for nothing? No matter how you drill into him that he will not always be the main target, goal kicking is still his forte and his one great skill. You are asking him to change the one thing he has done well, and been his only "claim to fame" for the last few years. Plus, if he is not going to be the 8 goal + a game kicker for us, what is the point of all these arguments to not trade him?

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Author:	Siegfried [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:
blueboysean wrote: This is a good thread...pity I have the attention span of a 3 year old, and can't be bothered reading it all. Anyway, continue with all of your good points. PS: Early contender for POW, Koutamagic Or at least a 15 year old Sean But was actually thinking the same thing, especially after the essay I just subjected people to on the other thread. Apologies. Koutamagic, your post is interesting, however, I would be flabbergasted, even with the ineptness that has shrowded the Club over recent years, if those benchmarks weren't put into Fevola's KPIs long ago. Pagan has been banging on for years about Fev improving hissecond efforts, his tackling, his defensive efforts, his assists. I am sure that those benchmarks have been in there for a long time.

Author:	bluehammer [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:
exsing wrote: However, if you want someone who is say...female, blonde, long legs, D cup boobs, looks like Jessica Alba, with a nice ass, then yes. You need to make that clear to your recruiter. If we think losing Fev would hurt our marketing, exsing you've just come up with the perfect replacement... With that at full forward we'd surpass West Coast & Adelaide's memberships.

Author:	exsing [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:
bluehammer wrote: exsing wrote: However, if you want someone who is say...female, blonde, long legs, D cup boobs, looks like Jessica Alba, with a nice ass, then yes. You need to make that clear to your recruiter. If we think losing Fev would hurt our marketing, exsing you've just come up with the perfect replacement... With that at full forward we'd surpass West Coast & Adelaide's memberships. If that was the case, we would definitely be instructing our mids to pump the ball high...just to see our FF jump.

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:
If the club believes there is absolutely no way to salvage him, then yes, draft is the way to go. The intention of this post is really to highlight some potential issues that Fev may be going through and how a relatively simple approach to player management and expectations management will do him and the club a whole lot of good. I think simply trading him is the easy option. Pagan has shown that he can get Fev right. But things are changing everyday and by adapting, Pagan can probably get Fev right again, in the new modern Carlton game. I am not asking him to change his goal kicking, rather am increasing his 'job description' so to speak to include other factors and not just concentrate on goal kicking. It is amazing once the 'job description' is changed how people react. He may not kick 8, but he may kick 4 but contribute to another 4 or 5 goals for team mates. Imagine the morale of the team. This has shown to work in workplaces and in footy teams (aka Barry Hall).

Author:	bluechucky [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:
Who's to say this hasn't been done in the past, with mixed success. Sometimes I think that the "man on the street" thinks they know more than the club itself. Just because the club does not publisize it does not mean it hasn't been done. And just because targets like the ones you are suggesting have been set doesn't mean that Fev will always acheive them. He's lost the plot, all this bullshit people management techniques mean diddly squat if the man himself doesn't want to change. My reading of the past 5 years is that he has been given these sorts of targets but he's dropped his bundle and the club, trying everything they could, can't get him to re-commit himself to the team goals so have given him a big kick up the arse. Sometimes a change of team can give you that kick as well..... just like it has with Lockett, Hall, Everitt etc.

Author:	Koutamagic [ Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:
bluechucky, agree that if he doesn't want to change, he won't change. as I said, the intention of the post is to highlight some potential issues and potential ways to deal with it. just like you, we both don't know whether what I've suggested has been done or otherwise. They may have, or they may not have. point is to highlight this and maybe IF it hasn't been done, then it may be a solution. If it has, then nothing has been lost by making this suggestion.