We know all about the Salary infringements penalties the signing of coaches to save his neck ect ect. But what is now plainly obvious from reading various threads is that we still have been penalised in other areas such as the empowerment of certain players under Parkin (the Old Guard)
The huge player payements that cam from the Elliot days which even in 2005 have still been haunting us.

What affect have these been on the club for the last 3 seasons.
- We have had our hands tied with these over back ended contracts which have crippled the club in the ability of renegotiation of those contracts / huge salary cap pressures.. unability to be able to target key players because we havnt had the cap room.

- Setting up a culture of paying over the market value which has had the above effect but also even vreated the Lappin issue ie i deserve more money because Campo and co have been payed more as well. Not deserve a good contract because i have played high quality football in a wining team that i am a key contributor. I believe even some of our youger group of players where disgruntled about the gap in the salary and the output these overplayed seniors where being payed.. This sets up such a poor culture / image of the club and sends a poor message for the youger list players.

- Empowerment of the Senior group as Parkin puts it and yes this is great if the players empowered show strong leadership and play for the jumper and club sacrificing some of there benfits for the good of the team.
In 1995 when Parkin gave that power we had a good senior core of leaders and players who used that to good effect but also these leaders where nearly at the end of there era as we see in the following years so the net affect of that era from 2002 onwards was that those players of that era who wernt good leaders who didnt follow the team game but more used that power they had been given earlier became totally selfish.
Of that era we have seen beumont / Allen cut and now we have finally Campo removed and Whitnall placed on a more realistic contract.
PLayers like Makay / Ratten / Hickmont of course where not in this category and would still be deserving and quality players if age hadnt caught up with them. They accepted the changing of the guard to a lesser degree Ratten and saw the change of CFC and that it had to have new blood ect. unfortunately some of the last reminents still saw CFC as a cash cow IE Campo / Whits to a lesser degree and as we have seen what players like Campo still expect the club to play them close to there old wage.
Empowerment works if you have self sacrificing leadership group who share a common goal want success on a continuous basis. Will sacrifice some of there benefits to get in key players to help there cause and send a good message to the younger list. Brissie of course being the best example of this. But even they may get into trouble when Voss leaves but having said that J Brown may continue Vossies good work IE he passed up mega bucks to stay with Brissie over the Pies.

- Why has it caused damage from the above..We have had issues with players given reality checks ie the old guard that when there contracts got renewed have all come back expecting more of the same to be well payed because they where in the past.. This has affected the image of the club with long standing disputes / Negative publicity on the internal culture of CFC / creates a negative enviroment that makes it harder to attract players to the club as well as making the value of those players not wanted ie they ask the same of new clubs or have been tainted with there poor attitude.

- Why Campo has been more singled out is mainly due to a lot of factors he epitimises the Elliot era in everyway with high demands on the club / playing as an individual / showing no leadership though he believe he is a strong leader / Creating negativity to the other players in prob displaying his selfish attitude that he wont be payed enough / The club not looking after him ect ect. (Been covered in many threads) - Remove Campo and a lot of the old Elliot legacy will go with him. Even Whits and Stevo may emerge with better attitudes with out having Campo bag the club / Board / Coaching group which if continued unstopped will cause the issues we have faced today.

- We need to have a clean slate which will hapen most likely in 2007 when Koutas contract runs out that will be the last of the over excessive contracts that has crippled the club but at least Kouta hasnt been causing the internal issues and negativity that Campo has done over the last 3 years. The New group should emerge more as a team rather than a elite and the rest mentality that has been around for last 3 years. The New kids wont have to see Campo being paid massive salary for getting easy possesions and showing no leadership on the field. The other senior players should start being more positive and work with the new guard better. We Have the picks now and we have played harder in the trades not grabbing 2nd grade players to fill in gaps all over the list. Hopefully the Image and culture of the club will improve and make it the club that so many players wanted to come and play footy for the proud CFC.
2006 will be the launching Pad 2007 will finally end the legacy of the past.

- There are still issues such as the board / finances hopefully these will also have big improvements over the next few years.. The End of the gravy train will help the finances of the club and allow it to chase key players to implement to a successful Blues Side. Maybe when things settle down we may put in place a more active and charismatic President as Collo has been good for some of the hard issues in regards to contracts and workingon getting the finances back into order but once this has been completed or showing the right direction he should make way for a more dynamic media savy President who will reflect a positive image of CFC. Maybe he is there now to take all the bad publicity and give all the bad news so the succesor has a cleaner slate lol though knwing Collo's ego and how he likes to be involved in areas he shouldnt be i am not so sure.. For the record i have been reasonably happy with Malouf our CEO.

- Hopefully 2006 will start to erase all the bad press / negativity we can get in some class kids like Mark Murphy and give him a really positive enviroment. Create that renewal of success and wanting to win again. Get our supporters excited.. Be able to attract big names to the club.
At moment even in the PSD we have Uncontracted players possibly saying i dont wnat to go to the Blues bottom team / Negative enviroment ect i have no doubt that these players if they are high class would play for less other clubs if they had the chance.. This image and culture has to change we have to be seen as the club to play for and hopefully this will be the case come 2006 / 2007

A good summation of where we're at, Wolfe.

The 'clean slate' you talk about is something we dearly need, and the lack of it at the moment is probably the source of so much of the frustration around here.

Blame it on Campo if you like. But I dont. The buck stops with management who have shown the biggest lack of leadership.
If what you say is true, then Collo and co should have acted to negate all these influences. Just who is running the club? Pathetic.

rubbernub, how do you 'negate' long term contracts that carried over from the Elliott regime? You can't just tear them up. Club did well to get pay cuts through. How do you negate crippling financial pressure from the white elephant grandstand developments, you can't just tell the bank you're not going to pay, unless you wind up the club. Exactly what sort of leadership should the club have shown to make this go away. And we inherited a crap list from an administration that refused to rebuild and who got caught rorting the cap. How do we get out of that? Go to court over the penalties? Cost us a fortune when we did that over Diesel's suspension and we lost.

I agree with many of your comments but the extent of our problems is greater in my eyes.
Our desperation to succeed has seen us compromise our principles continually over the past decade and when we had the opportunity to start again, we lacked the courage to do so.

We can point the finger at Camporeale but what examples were set for him?
His business partner and former captain of our club would take his bat and ball whenever he didnt get his way financially and refuse to train with his teammates.
Because Bradley was a good player we compromised and let him dictate a scenario which wouldnt have been tolerated by lesser players.
The moment Bradley refused to train with the club, he should have been put on the first bus to Port and told to @#$%&! off.
But we sacrificed our principles for fear of losing something.

When these decisions are made, the consequences are not always immediately apparent.
3 years ago we bought a lying thief into our club.
His character was abysmal but I like others forgave him his past because he had talent.
We allowed this player to steal off his teammates and club volunteers on numerous occasions at and away from the club.
We allowed this poison to infiltrate our playing group and continually made concessions for him that would not be afforded others.
We again sacrificed our principles for fear of losing.

Just to complicate this issue, even some of our senior players who benefitted from our lack of courage on numerous occasions were horrified at the concessions the club was making.
Some it appears took a stand and were condemned or ostracised.
Some were hypocritical in their actions but others acted with honourable intentions and I owe them an apology.

We cut lose Angwin and retained Norman who's character was questionable at best.
This player turned up to training off his face, has committed more misdemeanors than the media and supporters are aware of but we took him when no one else would.
Why? We compromised our principles for a chance at success.

This year we had the opportunity to put a plan in place and start again.
This could have been our ground zero.
We talked the talk but did we have the guts to see it through?
Instead of talking negotiation and compromise, we came out on the front foot and made defining statements.
Collo said the offers were in place for players and the club would not move.
He wasnt compelled to say anything but the club made a conscious decision to take a stand.

When push came to shove, we didnt have the guts to see it through.
The message is no different today to what is was 5 years ago.
The club will compromise for some and not others.
Lance Whitnall has shown 2 out of the past 3 years that he doesnt have the disciplined required to be a professional athlete.
I know some people will take cheap shots and say I hate Lance but thats thats not the case.
Give me the character and desire of a Adam Bentick everytime over a Lance Whitnall.
If players dont have the neccesary commitment and desire, get rid of them.
Commitment and desire should be the criteria for any player that plays for Carlton now.

Perhaps we may have only recieved a late first rounder for Lance but thats not the point.
We had an opportunity to make a stand and we didnt do it.

When Camporeale looked at Bradley 10 years ago, the message was about selfish attitudes and a lack of courage from the board.
When one of our youngsters looked to be paid above the odds 3 months ago, the message was the same.

We had the chance to draw a line in the sand but we lacked the courage to do so.

I know some people will point at sponsors etc and give excuses why we couldnt go ahead with it.
Its not true.
Sponsors will be a part of an exciting future.
They'll hang in there if a comprehensive exciting plan is in place.
We dont have one.
They dont want to stagnate.
Lets hope we dont.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Come on Bluevain get with the program, Campo is the scapegoat here. It was Campo's fault Braddles and SOS held the club to ransom.

You renegotiate them. You cant say that this is not possible. All successful clubs are effectively doing it in order to be able to retain their list together. Look at Saints look at Brisbane as prime examples. How many times have we expected that these clubs would have salary cap pressure and that they wouldnt be able to re sign such and such a player... and yet they are able to do it. This is the sort of thing that is expected of a good administration, clearly Collos head kicking ways have repercussions.... it gets the players off side. To me this is not smart leadership this is just dumb leadership. What Collo should have been concentrating on was maintaining a winning culture so that players wanted to stay. Instead he [REDACTED] that up big time with his first set of "non negotiable" pay cuts. Lappin showed more leadership accepting a lesser offer but seems to be poorly recognised for this fact.



Correct me if I am wrong but havent we had the "clear the decks write down" in Collos first year, where the write downs were brought forward? We even had them the second year.. and the third.. The point is if they were not related to write downs then what caused those losses. They were explained as just that at the time but now suddenly we still have this problem. Again another lack of leadership. Why not explain the situation properly... perhaps it would be unpalatable for the members and reflect poorly on the administration.
Didnt we hail Collo as the Messiah after he sold off the family silver (Optus oval contract, and move to Telstra) to clear our debt. I think the NAB were involved in that deal. Yet we are still being asked to swallow that we are in a financial mess.



Many clubs have crap lists and they turn it around by creating an environment that encourages players to want to be traded there. This has not been done. Go to court over penalties? I am not an advocate of court action for everything, but given Collo is a one trick pony of the head kicking variety this was right up his alley. The AFL draft system and penalties breaks so many trade laws it is not funny. Collo knew this but chose not to act. Fine, but what he forgot to do was use that leverage(the threat of legal action) to negotiate a lesser penalty for us. Good one Collo. Perhaps he was out tending the Telstra Dome grass at the time

Best post ever

I hope Collo, Denis and Malouf read this and cry

they should

In a way, Collo is just another throwback to the old days... the old days he grew up (as an administrator) in.

We need people who are new, with new vision.

and I believe, that person, is Fevolution

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Love Cricket? Love me

Just read Blue Veins post. He talks constantly about the compromising of principals. He is spot on. This all goes back to one thing. LACK OF LEADERSHIP. Leaders set the tone, players merely reacte to it.

No leadership off the ground = no leadership on it

Kouta, Campo and Whitnall had things given to them on a plate...

they can teach Bentick and those guys nothing about how to earn respect, and how to earn your money.

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Love Cricket? Love me

That's brilliant stuff..hopefully it was mailed to denis and co

Yes it has been well publicised by Elliot how difficult Bradley was when it came to contract negotiations and certainly the clubs relationship with SOS would of been strained during contract talks as well.

As far as i'm concerned SOS was worth it and plus some - he was the equivalent of 2 players.

BV i agree it is a bit rich for players reaching out for more and more dough and we have had quite a number even some favourite sons - he's a few since 2000: Hamill, Campo, Kouta, Lance, Allan, Houla, Fevola, Walker, Waite. Any more?

I could not agree more, BV. We hear all this stuff about failing to attract sponsors and how it is related to on-field performance. Obviously on-field performance does have some influence. Sponsors like to be attached to success, but it not paramount. They most like to be looked after, and have their brand image expanded (and not tarnished). However, off-field issues can be just as crucial. Some blame for this undoubtedly rests with the Elliott days. I would imagine it would have been very difficult for the current board to come in when they did. By Elliott coming out and showing a complete lack of regard for one sponsor, by smoking continously in public (with no public statements by the board deploring his actions, mind you) and giving another long-term sponsor, Hyundai a good old back-slap after they left doesn't reflect well on the club. And, it would have sponsors at least contemplating whether they'd be better looked after elsewhere. Because, as a general rule, sponsors aren't as loyal to a particular team as supporters are. And of course, the whole salary cap incident didn't help the image of the club.

But, two of the major Collo-era sponsors have been rushing to the door to leave. Mayne and Toshiba. Why? I don't believe we were ever told. Maybe it was a poor on-field showing (although we were looking pretty good at the end of last year when Toshiba ended their contract early). The Angwin-Norman situation (and the Fev-Lappin-etc ones before that) surely didn't help. There is a saying that any sort of press is good press. I'd disagree. If I was a sponsor and I continuously saw my product linked (through photos of players at training, etc accompanying articles) with drug-taking, foolish and juvenile behaviour and stealing, I would want to get out as soon as possible as well. The decision was a board's (and football department) one to bring these people with questionable characters into the club. Now, in the situation we were in at the time, I would have done the exact same thing they did - recruit them. We were desperate. But, the club has act as a business as well as football club. No easy task that. Too many chances were given, and had the sponsors getting worried.

It's time for the club to consider the repercussions of decisions it makes. Hawthorn in the 1980s was known as the family club. I'd like to see the club try to emulate this - family values at least - within the modern context of a business approach. Although it's not fashionable on this website to quote David Parkin, I think his comment 'character over talent' (provided the choice in player is quite similar) has a little bit of merit.

A fantastic post BV!

I would think that the Club monitors the Supporters Forums.Hopefully our Executive eventually read the mood of the fan base and "bite the bullet".

After 4 dreadful years we (the Supporters)were ready for "the line in the sand".

What better time to implement change!

Yep. Couldn't think of a better time to implement change, are the board prepared to do it?

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I agree with a lot of what you say BV and most of it relates back to the Elliot era and even futher back to the Parkin era when we refused to draft and do a essedon style rebuild of slowly moving some of the more aging stars for new and up coming kids.. just the whole culture back then has to be erased from the future of the blues to move forward in a united and reinvigerated matter.

There are many things i didnt add so as not to write too much but i agree now is the time to implement the change for a new Era ... clean slate and remove the culture of the past.

In regards to Campo he just epitimises the just what the Elliot era produced and with players like Campo it is near impossible to try and get a new and more balanced contract he would never agree to that and would expect the same again.

I agree also there where other players like Braddles and SOS we had issues with as well .... brown bags come to mind and F Brown who was also targeted rem refused to co-opertae with the AFL so yes they come into as well ........ But this era has to be erased .. and i tend to agree with the club still lacking the balls but i think that some message has been pushed forward this year also i belive Dennis would have possibly wanted all 4 to be removed but again was stopped but.. This time around
Campo - Gone if we retain him we are useless and [REDACTED]
Whitnell - 30% reduction of his salary he is under spotlight will be contracted next year so if we trade and he has a good year we wont loose him to the PSD
Kouta - Last season of a majorly over done contract an not much we can do than we prob have already tried with Kouta to reduce or renegotiate it
Lappin - Stayed to plan if he does sign it will be on 2 years and still within more accepatable figures and cat afford to loose him in PSD so in this case we can only afford to loose Campo in the PSD not lappin as well.

Rem BV 3 of the main players came out of contract if we really pushed to hard and made to strong a stand we could have lost all 3 in the PSD and yes it makes a statement but not getting any retrn for all 3 would have been suicide. And Lappin is more benefit for another 2 years for us instead of goin into the PSD ... Lance also is more benefit to us than going into the PSD and if we traded him for low value then everyone would have said how stupid the baord was... Campo can go as he just shown his true colours and even then Sheedy used the PSD against us saying no pick 19 for you maybe we will give you Bolton for Campo and your pick 36 if you dont trade or he will come to us in the PSD ... and well looks like he will come via the PSD as we didnt accept sheeds silly trade offer

But at the end of the day i think some stand has been shown this year but still lots to do. We havnt traded players off for crap .. we havnt tried this year to get fill in players .. we have made a stand on contracts to a degree and will loose one to the PSD and the other 2 on lower or semi acceptable contracts and most importantly we will retain all are key draft picks which in the past would have been traded away

Another on the money post form BV.

We have blatantly ignored the laws of cause and effect and been bitten hard.

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Get comfortable being uncomfortable

Very good post Wolfe but it isn’t entirely Campos fault. If the club was willing to pay him then so be it. I admit the last administration and coaching staff screwed up. Rather than keeping our draft dicks we chose to top up our list with aging players. This does help your premiership chances but the way Parkin left the clubs playing list was shocking. Although Brittian was a pathetic coach he was aided by Parkin's list which isn’t entirely he’s fault. I respect Parkin but the way he left the clubs squad was shocking. What was worse is that Brittian didn’t know the list was bad and traded hacks we didn’t need.

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

If Pagan wanted to get rid of players and was overridden by the board, he's not the man we need.
The football department should have full control over list structure.
If Pagan doesnt have the strength to act without the board compromising his decisions, he should step down.
Alternatively, If the coach is operating under a different philosophy to what the club expects, the board should remove him immediately.
There needs to be definition of roles and responsibilities and I'd be horrified if lines were being crossed to that extent.

How can the players know what direction the club is taking if the football department and board cannot agree?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

and there lies the problem BV the issue resides with both Dennis and Collo in this one but i dont think it is entirely due to Dennis being week replacing him with another coach wouldnt fix the problem up pm me BV i will let you know about some stuff i know from someone who is inside the club maybe we can compare notes but only comment on what i have been told and hey it could be wrong but then again could be some truth to it as well.