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Should Pagan be Sacked?
Yes (NOW) 57%  57%  [ 106 ]
Yes (At the end of season) 36%  36%  [ 67 ]
No (There is no better man for the Job) 6%  6%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 185
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:04 pm
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Location: Regent
Unfortunately we don't have any control on who coaches the Northern Bullants. That is up to that club. We are affiliated with them, we don't own them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:55 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Be quite clear, if this is a shallow draft, then Hartlett should not go, just another one year extension, work on his soft tissue injury and persist.

Worse case, try and rookie him if we can, as we will have an early pick at the rookies.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:23 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Take our medicine now and hold your fire on Pagan and get Kruezer and pick three. If another must be apointed make it someone totally out of contention for the 2008 job e.g. Libba or Mitch. The worst result long-term is a meaningless win. That said we could only beat (on merit) the Dees when they outtank us r.22.
To borrow a line ...."it's all about Kruezer now"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:08 am 
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Garry Crane
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:36 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:19 pm
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Why don't you just come out and say Swann's speaking to Bond?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:43 am 
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Bruce Doull
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mikkey wrote:
Electric Blue wrote:
The final dagger will be in before lunch tomorrow....


"please explain?" .. isn't the Board meetiing tomorrow evening?


I believe the board is meeting tonight.

Also reinforced in this article:
http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/carlt ... 48416.html

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:49 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:19 pm
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The thing I hate the most though, is how Pagan talks down the players.

He says we need more players, we don't have the leadership etc.

Talk about passing the buck.

It's no wonder they drop their bundle so easily, they have a coach who doesn't rate them as footballers!!

Reminds me of what Nathan Burke wrote in Inside Football late last year when he said the big criticism of Pagan is he coaches on the negative.

Well times have changed. Young men these days respond to positive reinforcement, not negative psychology. You get better results from raising one's spirit rather than by lowering one's integrity.

Apparently Pagan gave the players a verbal tirade after the game, behind closed doors. Hmm, I have a feeling that isn't going to help the group. Talk about flogging a dead horse.

This group need a coach who will give them a game plan that plays to their strengths and over time which will help restore their self-belief.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:52 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Yup, we need another thread about Pagan.....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:02 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20214
Location: North of the border
Cast your mind back 5 years ago and the players then who were a bit more senior than our current list all told him to go and get f'ed .

these Players were the rebels the disenters they were the cancer on the club . It turns out they were right all a long - they stated back then they Pagan couldn't coach and five years later nothing has changed.

The disheartening thing for me is that in 2003 we had a group of grumpy old players who weren't prepared to put up with his crap so they under performed and we were a so called embarassment to the club .What they were doing is telling everyone what was to come

Now five years later we have our next 10 years on show and they are performing worse than ever

It is pissing me off as I have been saying this from day one of Pagans tenure and we have put in five years of crap turned over 50-60 players for what the tripe that is being dished up .

Pagan criticises the player because it deflects attention off him . He is a smartarse with a smart mouth who got lucky at North

Piss him off now

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:11 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:19 pm
Posts: 1105
Synbad wrote:
From what i understand...
Pagan is gone
Voss will most likely be coach.

Now i dont know if theyll get rid of Pagan before the end of the year... but he wont be here next year.


I think we're getting mail from the same person bro.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:30 am 
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Garry Crane
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don't be too sure about Voss being the preferred candidate. The guy that is best suited will get the role not the one the media are spruiking. The process to find our next coach will be very calculated and Swann will be taking charge of the process not sticks or any other influencing faction. I think that the club admire the way hawthorn went about getting the best man for the job and not the man the media thought was the best (Ayres). Chris Bond is ticking a lot of boxes and again as I previously have stated he is leading the unofficial pack as we speak.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:49 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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My biggest beef with Pagan is quite simple...........it's always the same.

HE is clearly not the most creative coach in the world, but geez, you'd think that you'd make some kind of changes and try new things after beeing thrased week after week after week.

I made a promise at the start of this year that i would not judge Pagan on one 10+goal loss...................i would judge him on how he went about it the next week to rectify the situation.

Couple of things we do consistantly that haven't worked for 3-4 years:-

- Constantly playing wide.
Do we have something against the centre corrider of the bloody ground or somthing? Why do we always want to play along the wing........Not only is it stupid but it's COMPLETLY BLOODY OBVIOUS! Opposition teams go into the game knowing where gonna do it BEFORE WE'VE EVEN DONE IT!


-Still MUCH too negative.
The fast & flowing games against port and the bulldogs just hid this a bit but i still say Pagan is too negative to coach this team.

Look at Kouta yesterday.............he had racked up 13 possesions in the first half playing in the midfield. After half-time, he gets shiffted to defense? Why?

Gibbs in back pocket? - need i say more (and yeah, i get the whole 'development thing, but i'll argue that Gibbs learnt more playing in the centre in yesterdays game than he has probably earnt all bloody year!)

Etc, etc, etc.


-Rewards mediocrity, denys keen youth!
Ackland & Lappin........................two players who should be playing out the rest of the season in the bullants, yet they consistantly get rewarded for pathetic performances.
Grigg, Bower, Ando, Blackwell, & others.............trying to break into the side only to sit on the pine for 3/4s of the game once they finally do!



- Failure to prepare, Prepare to Fail!!!!!!

Aiskaie!!!!! - SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROMOTED THE SECOND CLOKE WENT DOWN.

Look at this for a scenario would you:
You have 3 ruckmen on your senior list. Your #1, the best of the 3, has just gone down with a season ending injury. Your #2 is trying to find some form and your #3 is still 4-6 weeks away with another injuury. You have the choice to promote a rookie has already been listed in the top 5 for the reserves 3 times this season.......................what do you do?

NOTHING???????????????????????????????????????????? :roll:

Jesus H Christ! I cannot get over this one. We'd rather play our future (hopefully) CHF/FF who's never played in the ruck before than promote a guy who's been busting his guts and putting in 110% week after week after week!


- Clearly no game plan!
This is now clear to me after seeing so many kids grab the ball and then stop and end up in a 'rabbit in the headlights' scenario!
Most of the time, the players up ahead have got their backs to the player who has the god-damn ball.

Ditto when we go inside 50. I FOR ONE FEEL SORRY FOR FEV cause most of the time he gets spoilt by his own player!
Sure, did Jonathon Brown did have good delivery yesterday, but delivery is only the half of it! HE HAD SPACE IN WHICH TO LEAD INTO Which was CLEARLY part of the Lions game plan!

With us? It's just 'GET IT INSIDE 50 AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE! - You might think that's crap, but PAGAN HAS ACTUALLY STATED THIS HIMSELF!!!!!!! :roll:

SAME STORY DOWN BACK! Clearly we could have thrown a spare man in defense yesterday to plug up where Brown was leading to (and i actually saw Gibbs do it just because it came naturaly to him, instinct like) but we did nothing. I said to my dad at half time, if we don't put a spare man down back Brown will kick 10 on us and i think Lynch said it on the commentary also! Jesus...............if we can see it SURELY Pagan can? Couldn't he?


-ALWAYS stubborn enough to blame our youth!
Cause no-way could it be our style of play or our lack of imagination could it Pagan? It's always 'we're a young team, we'll learn from that!'

THE LIONS ARE A YOUNG TEAM TOO MATE~ so there goes that theory.
Ditto Collingwood, and they're playing finals football!

BULLSHIT!

Excuses, excuses, excuses. That's all i've heard from Denis for 3 years. Nothing has changed.

Somebody sumed it up perfectly here a few weeks back!

At the end of last year we had:-
NO RUCK
NO CHF
NO CHB
& more importantly, NO GAME PLAN!

Halfway through this year, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!
We've only managed to add to that list cause we obviously have NO-FREAKING-IDEA!

I ask anybody who thinks Pagan is the right coach for us to tell me why! I ENCOURAGE IT! Hell i bloody dare it...................somebody please tell me something?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:02 am 
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Herald Sun columnist
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Posts: 10018
Location: Visy Park
If you heard Grant Thomas on SEN this morning Ryan you would have smashed the radio.

According to the sage and wise one, there is no other coach out there that could have done any better than what Denis is doing at the moment.

Not Roos or Worsfold or Malthouse or Clarkson or Williams or Tom or Dick or Harry.

The 22 players that run out for Carlton each week are the problem. It's not the coach according to Thommo - it's never the coach.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:06 am 
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Horrie Clover
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:41 am
Posts: 395
Location: Juddville
ryan2000 wrote:
My biggest beef with Pagan is quite simple...........it's always the same.

HE is clearly not the most creative coach in the world, but geez, you'd think that you'd make some kind of changes and try new things after beeing thrased week after week after week.

I made a promise at the start of this year that i would not judge Pagan on one 10+goal loss...................i would judge him on how he went about it the next week to rectify the situation.

Couple of things we do consistantly that haven't worked for 3-4 years:-

- Constantly playing wide.
Do we have something against the centre corrider of the bloody ground or somthing? Why do we always want to play along the wing........Not only is it stupid but it's COMPLETLY BLOODY OBVIOUS! Opposition teams go into the game knowing where gonna do it BEFORE WE'VE EVEN DONE IT!


-Still MUCH too negative.
The fast & flowing games against port and the bulldogs just hid this a bit but i still say Pagan is too negative to coach this team.

Look at Kouta yesterday.............he had racked up 13 possesions in the first half playing in the midfield. After half-time, he gets shiffted to defense? Why?

Gibbs in back pocket? - need i say more (and yeah, i get the whole 'development thing, but i'll argue that Gibbs learnt more playing in the centre in yesterdays game than he has probably earnt all bloody year!)

Etc, etc, etc.


-Rewards mediocrity, denys keen youth!
Ackland & Lappin........................two players who should be playing out the rest of the season in the bullants, yet they consistantly get rewarded for pathetic performances.
Grigg, Bower, Ando, Blackwell, & others.............trying to break into the side only to sit on the pine for 3/4s of the game once they finally do!



- Failure to prepare, Prepare to Fail!!!!!!

Aiskaie!!!!! - SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROMOTED THE SECOND CLOKE WENT DOWN.

Look at this for a scenario would you:
You have 3 ruckmen on your senior list. Your #1, the best of the 3, has just gone down with a season ending injury. Your #2 is trying to find some form and your #3 is still 4-6 weeks away with another injuury. You have the choice to promote a rookie has already been listed in the top 5 for the reserves 3 times this season.......................what do you do?

NOTHING???????????????????????????????????????????? :roll:

Jesus H Christ! I cannot get over this one. We'd rather play our future (hopefully) CHF/FF who's never played in the ruck before than promote a guy who's been busting his guts and putting in 110% week after week after week!


- Clearly no game plan!
This is now clear to me after seeing so many kids grab the ball and then stop and end up in a 'rabbit in the headlights' scenario!
Most of the time, the players up ahead have got their backs to the player who has the god-damn ball.

Ditto when we go inside 50. I FOR ONE FEEL SORRY FOR FEV cause most of the time he gets spoilt by his own player!
Sure, did Jonathon Brown did have good delivery yesterday, but delivery is only the half of it! HE HAD SPACE IN WHICH TO LEAD INTO Which was CLEARLY part of the Lions game plan!

With us? It's just 'GET IT INSIDE 50 AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE! - You might think that's crap, but PAGAN HAS ACTUALLY STATED THIS HIMSELF!!!!!!! :roll:

SAME STORY DOWN BACK! Clearly we could have thrown a spare man in defense yesterday to plug up where Brown was leading to (and i actually saw Gibbs do it just because it came naturaly to him, instinct like) but we did nothing. I said to my dad at half time, if we don't put a spare man down back Brown will kick 10 on us and i think Lynch said it on the commentary also! Jesus...............if we can see it SURELY Pagan can? Couldn't he?


-ALWAYS stubborn enough to blame our youth!
Cause no-way could it be our style of play or our lack of imagination could it Pagan? It's always 'we're a young team, we'll learn from that!'

THE LIONS ARE A YOUNG TEAM TOO MATE~ so there goes that theory.
Ditto Collingwood, and they're playing finals football!

BULLSHIT!

Excuses, excuses, excuses. That's all i've heard from Denis for 3 years. Nothing has changed.

Somebody sumed it up perfectly here a few weeks back!

At the end of last year we had:-
NO RUCK
NO CHF
NO CHB
& more importantly, NO GAME PLAN!

Halfway through this year, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!
We've only managed to add to that list cause we obviously have NO-FREAKING-IDEA!

I ask anybody who thinks Pagan is the right coach for us to tell me why! I ENCOURAGE IT! Hell i bloody dare it...................somebody please tell me something?


Ryan.. man for what it's worth the only one's who still view Pagan as the man for the job are either related to him or have serious problems of the above the shoulders kind. And even these people must be close to seeing
the light.

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Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:08 am 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 1:35 pm
Posts: 344
Come on down Braddles.... The man who doesnt want to be a career coach.. was involved in Black Friday... now is the time for him to deliver us our P.P........

Ratts will want to win games as he has is reputation on the line (and as a past great of our club I don't wanna see his chances harmed....)... Braddles has nothing to gain by winning, nothing to gain by losing... I will chair him off the ground come round 22 if he is made coach and takes successfully!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:09 am 
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John Nicholls
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Location: Beijing
Obviously Thomas is not one of them!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:09 am 
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Bruce Doull
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ryan2000 TESTIFAAAAAHHH MY BRUTHA!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:26 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4678
Location: Melbourne
DownUnderChick wrote:
If you heard Grant Thomas on SEN this morning Ryan you would have smashed the radio.

According to the sage and wise one, there is no other coach out there that could have done any better than what Denis is doing at the moment.

Not Roos or Worsfold or Malthouse or Clarkson or Williams or Tom or Dick or Harry.

The 22 players that run out for Carlton each week are the problem. It's not the coach according to Thommo - it's never the coach.


Yeah of course it is!

And it's the 22+ players that have left since pagan has been at the Helm.

SPARE ME THE BULLSHIT!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:30 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17518
There are some huge decisions to be made at the moment but the emotion has to be taken out of the argument.

I've said all along that the development is the key and the results are irrelevant and to a certain degree, I stand by that. I dont care that we lost.
I wanted to see Gibbs continue his improvement and it was great to see him have a run in the middle.
I thought Josh took big steps forward and JR did OK.
That is what its about. How we develop our kids for 2-3 years time.

But contradictory to my argument is the size of our losses. Losing hurts the kids but getting smashed is a different issue.
Murphy, Gibbs and co. will be having their confidence and enjoyment for the game stripped from them at an enormous rate at the moment.
How this will impact on them, who knows.
Will it have long term impacts on their self belief? Will it make them look at getting the hell out of Carlton at the first opportunity? Who Knows?

Hopefully those in charge of the club have a hand on these issues.
Whether Pagan stays or goes before the end of the season is irrelevant to me.
Those with their fingers on the pulse need to make a decision on what is in the best interest of our kids.
In 3 years time, hopefully Pagan, Kouta, Lance, Fevola etc will be a memory. Today isnt about them. Do what is better for the psyche and development of the kids.

If Swann, Icke and the board believe our kids will benefit by keeping Denis for the interim, fair enough. If they believe he needs to go now, do it.
But be honest and frank with the supporters and players about what we want to achieve. Reset our goals. Focus on development and lets start again.
Dont make decisions to keep feral supporters happy or to appease sponsors. Take the emotion out of the argument and make the decision on who can keep our kids on track and give them hope for the future. I've said from day one that I dont believe its Denis but those at the club hopefully will make an informed decision.

In my eyes, our kids were the only ones who gave a stuff in the second half yesterday. The older players can no longer give a whimper when its required. Their resilience is no longer active. You can bag them for it but unless you are in their shoes and feel the same levels of despair, its easy to condemn.

I dont want to be saying the same thing about Murphy, Gibbs and co. in 3 years time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:55 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 12:06 pm
Posts: 2098
Just on Ch 7 news.

Pratt, Swann, Icke and Kernahan holding a meeting with Pagan now somewhere in Melbourne CBD. Pagan asked to resign and has declined.

Expected to be sacked and decision ratified at tonights Board Meeting!!!


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