TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Bruce Doull No4?

moshe25 wrote:

There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships.

1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio.

2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again.

3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where.

When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered.

I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years.

Great post moshe25!

If you fleshed a few of the arguments out a bit that would make a great article for the Blueseum?

moshe25 wrote:

Yes fantastic analysis of 1973 - great post Moshe.

It wasn't Cattogio's first game (might have been his 4th - certainly his first in the starting 18). We had an excellent on ball division with Keogh, Armstrong, although Walsh was more a forward pocket specialist.

Our Match Committee didnt realize till too late that Nicholls was in actually no fit state to be pulling the strings as Coach after he was felled.

The mid 70s were a curiosly unproductive time for Carlton - always touted as "the best team on paper" we just never delivered. 1976 was very disappointing when we finished on top of the ladder and went out in straight sets with a 1 point loss to North Melbourne in the Preliminary Final.

You are the first person I have heard to draw a connection to the 1973 Grand Final loss and our lack of out put during this period, makes for a good discussion.

Nicholls certainly lost enthusiasm for the role of coach in 1974/75 but I had heard it was attributed to his personal and financial problems - and the fact that he was "asked" to leave the club at the start of the 1976 season rather than resigning willingly.

Great Post Moshe

I was there in 73 and when Nick went down the whole stadium shuddered and with him going down our hopes of winning were dashed

You were right we didnt have a plan B -Nick was captain coach and was the clubs spiritual and strategic leader and once he was scalped by fowler our whole system went down

Nick got up but through the glasses at quarter time you could tell he was finding it difficult to communicate to the players

I dont think we had a plan B because Nick was such a tough bastard that it was never envisaged that he would be poleaxed and not just get up

I HATE Richmond because of that game -nearly 40 years later was tempted at the GC airport to give it to Balme the other week because of the disgraceful hit on Southby who was never the same again after the incident

Big Nick was probably fair game as he gave as good as he got but southby was one of the fairest players ever and the Balme assasination was akin to when L Matthews did a job on ken hunter

Nick was a tactical genius and in no small part engineered the 72 victory -playing himself out of FP -augmenting walls jackson jezza in a power packed forward line whilst Perce did the rucking

Agree also with Agro Doully owned Royce Hart who was a brilliant player
I always put it down to the fact that Bruce could match him in the air get the spoil in but was cat like in his recovery and would mop up the spilled ball whilst Hart was wondering how he didnt take the mark

Bruce was really the first attacking hbf who was the harbinger for the modern hbf who sets up the play and is the springboard into attack

Going on a little further it was sublime to see both Jezza and doull on the hbf - :clap:

Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen.

72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day!

Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen.

Warby wrote:

Did Des offer you any tyres :wink:

Warby wrote:

Me too.

Still the most perfect day of my life. The brilliant footy was the start of the perfect day.

frank dardew wrote:

And McKay (and later big Val) as attacking CHB. Those 70s teams were unbelievable.

moshe25 wrote:

frank dardew wrote:

And McKay (and later big Val) as attacking CHB. Those 70s teams were unbelievable.

David McKay was the best consistent mark of a ball that I have ever seen. What a pair of hands!
The best one-off mark I ever saw, though, was by John Gould (I'm pretty sure it was an interstate game and he was playing CHB for Vic, of course). The ball was kicked high and long in the direction of Gould right on the half time siren, and I remember with one straight arm raised almost vertically above his head he marked it. What was so good about it was that he just plucked it out of the air as he had just begun walking off the field, like someone casually catching a tennis ball thrown at them in one easy grab or a fielder catching a baseball with a glove. The ball just flew into his hand and it stayed there. I remember the crowd roared in amazement as Gould just kept the ball aloft with that straight arm for a good five seconds or more before dropping it on the turf and continuing to walk off the field. I never forgot it although it happened some 40 odd years ago.

..............Here we've got Bruce outmarking Peter McCormack and Val Perovic with Rene Kink watching.....................

Author:	moshe25 [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Jarusa wrote: moshe25 wrote: There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships. 1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio. 2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again. 3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where. When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered. I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years. Great post moshe25! If you fleshed a few of the arguments out a bit that would make a great article for the Blueseum? Hehe... Just found this thread. Only took me 4 years. But it's there! http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=159

Author:	aboynamedsue [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Great read moshe, and good thread!

Author:	Shanghai Blues [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
AGRO wrote: moshe25 wrote: There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships. 1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio. 2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again. 3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where. When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered. I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years. Yes fantastic analysis of 1973 - great post Moshe. It wasn't Cattogio's first game (might have been his 4th - certainly his first in the starting 18). We had an excellent on ball division with Keogh, Armstrong, although Walsh was more a forward pocket specialist. Our Match Committee didnt realize till too late that Nicholls was in actually no fit state to be pulling the strings as Coach after he was felled. The mid 70s were a curiosly unproductive time for Carlton - always touted as "the best team on paper" we just never delivered. 1976 was very disappointing when we finished on top of the ladder and went out in straight sets with a 1 point loss to North Melbourne in the Preliminary Final. You are the first person I have heard to draw a connection to the 1973 Grand Final loss and our lack of out put during this period, makes for a good discussion. Nicholls certainly lost enthusiasm for the role of coach in 1974/75 but I had heard it was attributed to his personal and financial problems - and the fact that he was "asked" to leave the club at the start of the 1976 season rather than resigning willingly. It was actually his 3rd, I was 8 at the time and it was the 1st time I had seen the Blues lose a GF. I was at the 70 & 72 GFs and still remember the excitement of us winning. My memory through this era is not bad and most seasons went to every game.

Author:	Warby [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
..............Here we've got Bruce outmarking Peter McCormack and Val Perovic with Rene Kink watching.....................

Author:	frank dardew [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Great Post Moshe I was there in 73 and when Nick went down the whole stadium shuddered and with him going down our hopes of winning were dashed You were right we didnt have a plan B -Nick was captain coach and was the clubs spiritual and strategic leader and once he was scalped by fowler our whole system went down Nick got up but through the glasses at quarter time you could tell he was finding it difficult to communicate to the players I dont think we had a plan B because Nick was such a tough bastard that it was never envisaged that he would be poleaxed and not just get up I HATE Richmond because of that game -nearly 40 years later was tempted at the GC airport to give it to Balme the other week because of the disgraceful hit on Southby who was never the same again after the incident Big Nick was probably fair game as he gave as good as he got but southby was one of the fairest players ever and the Balme assasination was akin to when L Matthews did a job on ken hunter Nick was a tactical genius and in no small part engineered the 72 victory -playing himself out of FP -augmenting walls jackson jezza in a power packed forward line whilst Perce did the rucking

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Author:	moshe25 [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
frank dardew wrote: Great Post Moshe I was there in 73 and when Nick went down the whole stadium shuddered and with him going down our hopes of winning were dashed You were right we didnt have a plan B -Nick was captain coach and was the clubs spiritual and strategic leader and once he was scalped by fowler our whole system went down Nick got up but through the glasses at quarter time you could tell he was finding it difficult to communicate to the players I dont think we had a plan B because Nick was such a tough bastard that it was never envisaged that he would be poleaxed and not just get up I HATE Richmond because of that game -nearly 40 years later was tempted at the GC airport to give it to Balme the other week because of the disgraceful hit on Southby who was never the same again after the incident Big Nick was probably fair game as he gave as good as he got but southby was one of the fairest players ever and the Balme assasination was akin to when L Matthews did a job on ken hunter Nick was a tactical genius and in no small part engineered the 72 victory -playing himself out of FP -augmenting walls jackson jezza in a power packed forward line whilst Perce did the rucking Thanks Frank. Yeah it's hard for people to get just how good Nicholls was - there's not much footage. Mind you, there's not much footage of any of them, but at least everyone has been inundated with the Jezza mark. But Nicholls (and Walls for that matter) were so good, so clever and so tough. And both of them were tactical geniuses. I too hate Richmond since that game, and although I like watching them play at the moment, I do feel dirty whenever I do......

Author:	frank dardew [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Agree also with Agro Doully owned Royce Hart who was a brilliant player I always put it down to the fact that Bruce could match him in the air get the spoil in but was cat like in his recovery and would mop up the spilled ball whilst Hart was wondering how he didnt take the mark Bruce was really the first attacking hbf who was the harbinger for the modern hbf who sets up the play and is the springboard into attack Going on a little further it was sublime to see both Jezza and doull on the hbf -

Author:	moshe25 [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
frank dardew wrote: Agree also with Agro Doully owned Royce Hart who was a brilliant player I always put it down to the fact that Bruce could match him in the air get the spoil in but was cat like in his recovery and would mop up the spilled ball whilst Hart was wondering how he didnt take the mark Bruce was really the first attacking hbf who was the harbinger for the modern hbf who sets up the play and is the springboard into attack Going on a little further it was sublime to see both Jezza and doull on the hbf - And McKay (and later big Val) as attacking CHB. Those 70s teams were unbelievable.

Author:	chubbyruss [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Great read Moshe. Brings back memories of those days to me I loved 1979 as well and I still reckon the ball was out

Author:	Shanghai Blues [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
[I loved 1979 as well and I still reckon the ball was out [/quote] I agree with every Magpie supporter I know that "the ball was definately out". I also ask them by the way, "Where is the Premiership Cup for 1979 ?" I know it is an old and tired joke but I never stop getting pleasure from it. Some times it is the small things that keep us old guys happy !!

Author:	Warby [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day! Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen.

Author:	AGRO [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Warby wrote: Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen. I think he's wrong - probably the events of 2 years earlier still raw in his mind.

Author:	chubbyruss [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Warby wrote: 72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day! Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen. Did Des offer you any tyres

Author:	AGRO [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
chubbyruss wrote: Warby wrote: 72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day! Des Tuddenham was sitting in front of us, and said it was the best display of footy he'd ever seen. Did Des offer you any tyres Or to share his lemonade? Or perhaps a kick of a plastic football after the game?

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Author:	bondiblue [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Warby wrote: 72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day! . Me too. Still the most perfect day of my life. The brilliant footy was the start of the perfect day.

Author:	Bomba Sheldon [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
bondiblue wrote: Warby wrote: 72 is still my all time favourite; especially as Sheedy had told Big Nick he ''should give it away....you're past it''........and Nick stood like a colussus in the goalsquare kicking 6 goals whilst Percy rucked all match, and Wallsy kicked 6 and Jezza 7......what a day! . Me too. Still the most perfect day of my life. The brilliant footy was the start of the perfect day. I was too young back then, but i will take the flag 10 years later in 1982 against the Tigers with Bruce Doull playing a key part in the win

Author:	frank dardew [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
They are all special but 1972 was very special - the draw at waverley -I was willing Jezza to kick a point even though he was about 70 out - banged the drop kick a long way -then getting comprehensively smashed in the replay by Tiggers winning the GF on OCTOBER 7 one day before my birthday -greatest exhibition of forward play I think I have ever seen Guns on every line

Author:	blueman2 [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
moshe25 wrote: frank dardew wrote: Agree also with Agro Doully owned Royce Hart who was a brilliant player I always put it down to the fact that Bruce could match him in the air get the spoil in but was cat like in his recovery and would mop up the spilled ball whilst Hart was wondering how he didnt take the mark Bruce was really the first attacking hbf who was the harbinger for the modern hbf who sets up the play and is the springboard into attack Going on a little further it was sublime to see both Jezza and doull on the hbf - And McKay (and later big Val) as attacking CHB. Those 70s teams were unbelievable. David McKay was the best consistent mark of a ball that I have ever seen. What a pair of hands! The best one-off mark I ever saw, though, was by John Gould (I'm pretty sure it was an interstate game and he was playing CHB for Vic, of course). The ball was kicked high and long in the direction of Gould right on the half time siren, and I remember with one straight arm raised almost vertically above his head he marked it. What was so good about it was that he just plucked it out of the air as he had just begun walking off the field, like someone casually catching a tennis ball thrown at them in one easy grab or a fielder catching a baseball with a glove. The ball just flew into his hand and it stayed there. I remember the crowd roared in amazement as Gould just kept the ball aloft with that straight arm for a good five seconds or more before dropping it on the turf and continuing to walk off the field. I never forgot it although it happened some 40 odd years ago.

Author:	chubbyruss [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
blueman2 wrote: moshe25 wrote: frank dardew wrote: Agree also with Agro Doully owned Royce Hart who was a brilliant player I always put it down to the fact that Bruce could match him in the air get the spoil in but was cat like in his recovery and would mop up the spilled ball whilst Hart was wondering how he didnt take the mark Bruce was really the first attacking hbf who was the harbinger for the modern hbf who sets up the play and is the springboard into attack Going on a little further it was sublime to see both Jezza and doull on the hbf - And McKay (and later big Val) as attacking CHB. Those 70s teams were unbelievable. David McKay was the best consistent mark of a ball that I have ever seen. What a pair of hands! The best one-off mark I ever saw, though, was by John Gould (I'm pretty sure it was an interstate game and he was playing CHB for Vic, of course). The ball was kicked high and long in the direction of Gould right on the half time siren, and I remember with one straight arm raised almost vertically above his head he marked it. What was so good about it was that he just plucked it out of the air as he had just begun walking off the field, like someone casually catching a tennis ball thrown at them in one easy grab or a fielder catching a baseball with a glove. The ball just flew into his hand and it stayed there. I remember the crowd roared in amazement as Gould just kept the ball aloft with that straight arm for a good five seconds or more before dropping it on the turf and continuing to walk off the field. I never forgot it although it happened some 40 odd years ago. I also remember Ragsy Goold taking some brilliant marks. Swan McKay did have a sensational pair of hands 40 years ago Well I'll be [REDACTED]

Author:	Bomba Sheldon [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bruce Doull No4?
Warby wrote: ..............Here we've got Bruce outmarking Peter McCormack and Val Perovic with Rene Kink watching..................... Its actually Craig Davis and not McCormack