Bruce Doull No4?

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

AGRO wrote:

[I next recalled seeing the arc at either the WACA or Subiaco Oval in 1987 when the West Coast Eagles had a 25 metre and 50 metre arc painted on the ground - I think the WAFL introduced it as an aid to commentators in calling the games and letting them know how far out players were in kicking for goal.

I'm pretty sure that they were using both the 25 and 50 meter arcs in the WAFL well before the days of the Eagles.

Teddy · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:14 am

moshe25 wrote:

Siegfried wrote:

I'm guessing all the info is in the Blueseum.

I can tell you he came to the Clib from Jacana in 1969. Played some games in 1970, IIRC, but didn't play in the '70 GF. Established himself as a permanent player in the seniors in '71, and played in the '72 GF.

Pretty sure he wore 11 in 1972, so the change would have been before that. Although it seems I am wrong, as your team list from Blueseum has Doull as #4, and Southby in the team, and Southby's first year was '72. Maybe he changed number during the year?

I started going to the footy in '75, and he was well and truly a star by then.

That team would have to be 1971 - not 1972. Southby started in 1971, and actually won the B&F in his first two years (71 and 72).

Yes, it's a 1971 team as it has Serge Silvagni and Ian Collins in it. I remember running onto Princess Park as an 8 year old, after the final game of 1971 when Serge and Collo were being chaired off the ground as it was their last games for the club. We beat Collingwood so it was a great finish for two great Carlton men.

We missed the finals that year by a narrow margin. I can't remember if it was percentage or points but remember that we would have got to fourth position if we had beaten Fitzroy the week before in the famous fog match at Junction oval. I was there and you couldn't see a thing in the second half and we lost by ten points.

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships.

1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio.

2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again.

3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where.

When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered.

I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years.

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

moshe25 wrote:

There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships.

1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio.

2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again.

3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where.

When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered.

I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years.

Great post moshe25!

If you fleshed a few of the arguments out a bit that would make a great article for the Blueseum?

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

I'll see what I can do. Some of the facts may be sketchy - I'm going from memory. I'll make sure they're correct and put something together.....

camel · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:20 pm

That'd be great!

molsey · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:27 pm

moshe25 wrote:

I'll see what I can do. Some of the facts may be sketchy - I'm going from memory. I'll make sure they're correct and put something together.....

Please do - if you need a hand there's heaps of writers working on the Blueseum who could help. You could probably put a draft up here and I'm sure people will have views on it - then feel free to ignore / accept some of those to come up with a final product.

The plan is for 2007 and beyond to get cross-promotion through both the Blueseum and carltonfc.com.au, as we saw with the Geoff Southby memory article and the 'Despised to Blue' articles over the past fortnight.

AGRO · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:10 pm

moshe25 wrote:

There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships.

1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio.

2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again.

3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where.

When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered.

I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years.

Yes fantastic analysis of 1973 - great post Moshe.

It wasn't Cattogio's first game (might have been his 4th - certainly his first in the starting 18). We had an excellent on ball division with Keogh, Armstrong, although Walsh was more a forward pocket specialist.

Our Match Committee didnt realize till too late that Nicholls was in actually no fit state to be pulling the strings as Coach after he was felled.

The mid 70s were a curiosly unproductive time for Carlton - always touted as "the best team on paper" we just never delivered. 1976 was very disappointing when we finished on top of the ladder and went out in straight sets with a 1 point loss to North Melbourne in the Preliminary Final.

You are the first person I have heard to draw a connection to the 1973 Grand Final loss and our lack of out put during this period, makes for a good discussion.

Nicholls certainly lost enthusiasm for the role of coach in 1974/75 but I had heard it was attributed to his personal and financial problems - and the fact that he was "asked" to leave the club at the start of the 1976 season rather than resigning willingly.

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

AGRO wrote:

moshe25 wrote:

There are a number of factors for the 1973 loss, which really devastated the club. We didn't recover for 6 years, after which we'd missed out on at least two premierships.

1. Keogh and Armstrong - our main midfielders - were both unavailable (Keogh was injured, I believe, and Armstrong had appendicitis). This is akin to Brisbane losing Voss and Brown before their GFs, or WC losing Judd and Cousins. I'm not comparing their quality, just their importance to the team structure. This forced us to bring in a young, slight, overwhelmed first-gamer - Vinnie Catoggio.

2. Hafey/Sheedy tactics used against us for the first time. Nicholls, Walls, Jessa, Waite, McKay, Pinell, and Southby all illegally felled. After Nick went down in the first few minutes, everyone was stunned. When Pinnell was downed, and someone (Waite, I think) went in to hit Sheedy, they paid a free kick against us, and that was the end of the resistance. I remember saying that Carlton suffered from Southby-itis throughout the rest of the 70s, until Jezza toughened us up again.

3. Because Nick was probably concussed, we came up with no Plan B. He wasn't just a tough guy, he was a tactical genius. Many people don't realize this. With him out of the picture, not only did we not have a real enforcer, we had no-one working out who to move where.

When you consider those three factors, it's remarkable we got as close as we did. Unfortunately, it cost us probably 2 flags, heaps of self respect, and probably what could have been a great career (Vinnie). He was ok, but was so screwed up by that game, that he never really recovered.

I've always maintained that 1979 is our most important premierhip, because it broke the hold that the 73 GF had on us, and demonstrated that we had what it takes as a club (not just skill and flair, but mongrel, etc). As if to confirm that, we then went on to win another two in the next 3 years.

Yes fantastic analysis of 1973 - great post Moshe.

It wasn't Cattogio's first game (might have been his 4th - certainly his first in the starting 18). We had an excellent on ball division with Keogh, Armstrong, although Walsh was more a forward pocket specialist.

Our Match Committee didnt realize till too late that Nicholls was in actually no fit state to be pulling the strings as Coach after he was felled.

The mid 70s were a curiosly unproductive time for Carlton - always touted as "the best team on paper" we just never delivered. 1976 was very disappointing when we finished on top of the ladder and went out in straight sets with a 1 point loss to North Melbourne in the Preliminary Final.

You are the first person I have heard to draw a connection to the 1973 Grand Final loss and our lack of out put during this period, makes for a good discussion.

Nicholls certainly lost enthusiasm for the role of coach in 1974/75 but I had heard it was attributed to his personal and financial problems - and the fact that he was "asked" to leave the club at the start of the 1976 season rather than resigning willingly.

Yes. I've thought about it for years. My experience during the 70s was week after week of us thumping the opposition. If it wasn't Jezza kicking goals, it was McKay, or Walls. And we had one good player after another.

But..........we were the Collingwood of the 70s. Whenever the rubber hit the road, in big matches, in the finals, we came undone. After being big-game specialists (think 68 GF, 70 GF, 71 vs Collingwood, 72 GF, etc), we became big-game duds. It was like we were running scared, worried about another Balme or Sheedy.

On top of that, the other teams (the ones with smart coaches - Hafey, Kennedy, Barassi, etc - knew how to beat us. Couldn't contain Jones, Fitzpatrick, Jezza, Walls, McKay, Southby, Doull, Crosswell, etc, etc - so scare the shit out of them with intimidatory tactics.

We kept looking for better players and better coaches, but Jezza was the first one that had us stand straight and tall. I still remember him shaping up to Ray Shaw in the 79 GF, boxing stance, fists aready. It was great stuff.

So, if you look at 79, 81, 82 - we had good players, but not necessarily better than mid 70s - just tougher - Buckley, Sheldon, Maclure, Hunter, Glascott, Johnston - no backing down. Who knows, if G. Harris hadn't caused a ruckus at the end of 79, we might have won 4 in a row..... (then again, we may have lost them all.... who knows, but that's another story....... :wink:

)

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

One other sideline out of all of this is that I think that Jezza has been much maligned as a coach. Many people say he was lucky and inherited a good team. If you read my above post, I think it's clear he did more than that. And to add weight to that, I'd say this:

If he was lucky and inherited a good team, then how come Thororgood before him and then Perce after him, couldn't get this "good team" to win ONE finals match.

Nah, I reckon he was an awesome coach because he transformed the culture of a team (much like Matthews did at Collingwood, Barassi did at North, and Malthouse HASN'T YET done at Collingwood).

I think his second tenure, 10 years after really being in AFL footy, has tarnished peoples' views of him unfairly.

AGRO · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:41 pm

moshe25 wrote:

One other sideline out of all of this is that I think that Jezza has been much maligned as a coach. Many people say he was lucky and inherited a good team. If you read my above post, I think it's clear he did more than that. And to add weight to that, I'd say this:

If he was lucky and inherited a good team, then how come Thororgood before him and then Perce after him, couldn't get this "good team" to win ONE finals match.

Nah, I reckon he was an awesome coach because he transformed the culture of a team (much like Matthews did at Collingwood, Barassi did at North, and Malthouse HASN'T YET done at Collingwood).

I think his second tenure, 10 years after really being in AFL footy, has tarnished peoples' views of him unfairly.

Jezza was revered by all the players around him - as he played with them. They would walk over hot coals for him. He trained them harder than Ian Stewart did (but Stewart was "sacked" because he was nasty and the players didnt respond to it) Jezza said jump and they said how high.

Jezza also had a nucleous of new blood that were just coming into their own after 2 or 3 years:

- Buckley
- Sheldon
- Maclure
- Harmes
- Johnston (was a first year player)
- Marcou (first year player)

Doull and Jones and Jezza were really the only overhanging players from that 73 debacle (oops I forgot McKay, Southby :oops:

- Walls left after punching out Ian Stewart) - and dont forget we lost that first semi final to Collingwood in 1978 after having won 15 of our previous 18 games to come from last place when Jezza was appointed.

Jezza and the club were that tough on players that they froze Ashman out of that 1979 group until he paid his penance for wanting to be cleared.

It is very likely that we would have won the 1980 Grand Final if Jezza had of remained - probably would have won the 4 in a row if you include 81 and 82 - it will always remain an interesting discussion - but I think the time was ripe for David Parkin to come in and revolutionize the way coaching was handled back then.

I think tactically the game had passed Jezza by when he came back in 1989 and by then most of the players he had played with had gone - but Jezza still had some of the aura about him that helped win him a few games, we certainly had a lot of deadwood which Parkin helped to clear out in his second coming.

But Jezza's coaching philosophy was very simple:

"I gave the boys jobs and they went out and did them."

:wink:

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

More and more I like this AGRO...........

AGRO · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:56 pm

moshe25 wrote:

More and more I like this AGRO...........

I am much maligned.

Molly · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:35 pm

This is a fascinating discussion gents...

keep it coming! Out of interest, has Jezza come back to the club at all? My recollection was that he did a bit of a Kevin Bartlett after getting sacked as coach, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

Jezza did have the respect of the players, no doubt, and he did 'give them jobs'. But he also had a simple philosophy, you lose, you pay for it on the track.

He used to flog the living suitcases out of them after a loss, so much so, that there was a big 'fear' motivation in the way they played. I think he may have got found out a bit on that in his second stint, when the tactical side of coaching was really emerging.

From memory, Jezza spent a great deal of time working at Visy, not sure, may even still be there. I was always under the impression that he had maintained a connection with the Club.

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

molsey wrote:

moshe25 wrote:

I'll see what I can do. Some of the facts may be sketchy - I'm going from memory. I'll make sure they're correct and put something together.....

Please do - if you need a hand there's heaps of writers working on the Blueseum who could help. You could probably put a draft up here and I'm sure people will have views on it - then feel free to ignore / accept some of those to come up with a final product.

The plan is for 2007 and beyond to get cross-promotion through both the Blueseum and carltonfc.com.au, as we saw with the Geoff Southby memory article and the 'Despised to Blue' articles over the past fortnight.

Yes, feel free to contact either or both of us, happy to help out. Hopefully, it might even be able to appear on the CFC official site.

I reckon your narrative is very interesting, as long as it is backed up by some logic and verifiable facts it will be like 99% of football writing, an opinion piece.

Blue Sombrero · **Posted:** Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:13 am

Getting back to Bruce Doull for a sec, I had a picture of the 1968 players and B. Doull was obviously at the club in the U19s or something. He is in the photo with a full head of hair. I think the pic came from the Sun at the time but it must be around somewhere.

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

Blue Sombrero wrote:

Getting back to Bruce Doull for a sec, I had a picture of the 1968 players and B. Doull was obviously at the club in the U19s or something. He is in the photo with a full head of hair. I think the pic came from the Sun at the time but it must be around somewhere.

That would be a great addition to the Blueseum.

.... we do have one picture of B. Doull with a full head of hair.

Rod Waddell · **Joined:** Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am **Posts:** 1632

Jezza worked them hard no doubt but he also let them enjoy themselves & a drink and cigarette were part of the regime.

BTW 2 unheralded players from '79 - P Francis (close to BOG in the GF) and M Young.

Blue Sombrero · **Posted:** Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:43 am

Jarusa wrote:

Blue Sombrero wrote:

Getting back to Bruce Doull for a sec, I had a picture of the 1968 players and B. Doull was obviously at the club in the U19s or something. He is in the photo with a full head of hair. I think the pic came from the Sun at the time but it must be around somewhere.

That would be a great addition to the Blueseum.

.... we do have one picture of B. Doull with a full head of hair.

Sorry, Jars. I said I HAD it. That was almost 40 years ago and in a different hemisphere! It was the official team photo for that year so I am sure somebody must have it already at the club...
It would be great for the Blueseum...

Bruce Doull No4?

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