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Be patient with the kids
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16729		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RiverRodent [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Be patient with the kids
Watching the Vic Country U18 team being run over by the lowly Bullants reserves made me think about the size of the gap between junior and senior footy. The Vic Country kids will be hoping to get drafted later in the year and the fans of the team that drafts them will be expecting the selectors to select them to play AFL football –just one year after a team of them were defeated by the Bullants reserves.

This was reinforced by watching Lachlan Hansen (one of last year’s top 3 draftees) playing in the VFL for Tassie just 12 months after he failed to impress me playing for Vic Country against the Bullants reserves.

Then I looked at some of Carlton’s recent draftees and thought about the many impatient fans calling out for the MC to select Benjamin and others when they are clearly not ready to play with the big boys yet.

Think back to our higher draft picks in recent years.
2002 Simpson – not a regular until 2005 – showed his class in 2006
2003 Walker – played his share of VFL games before becoming a regular
2004 Russell – only now starting to become a regular in his 3rd season
2004 Hartlett – still finding his way
2005 Murphy – immediate senior performer but still just a kid
2005 Kennedy – still finding his way
2005 Bower – looks quite a way off yet
2006 Gibbs – immediate senior performer but still just a kid
2006 Hampson – great physical attributes but definitely a project
2006 Grigg – might get a game soon but unlikely to be a reguar senior this year

Looks like only the absolute top picks can lay claim to a regular senior berth in their first season – the rest of the kids can be expected to take time – lets hope the MC and the fans are patient enough to give it to them.
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 
RR - It would be nice if the system gave them time but signing players to two year deals when they are drafted puts a hell of a lot of pressure on them to perform early. Carlton only gave Hartlett a one year deal after his initial two year signing on. Meeson seems in trouble at Adelaide- Brennan let go and there are others. It would suggest that the clubs are less patient than the supporters .

clubs should be forced to sign them on as apprentices and allow them four years before they have to start negotiating a new contract. Sure there could be out clauses for the club be they must be special circumstances.

Two years is not long enough and places to much unrealisitc expectations on kids
Author:  camel [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:12 am ]
Post subject: 
But Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, are we theeeeeeerrrrreeeeee yeeeeeeeettt?
Author:  bondiblue [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:22 am ]
Post subject: 
It's a strong case you present RR.

Well said.

We've got a great list of kids, but that's what they are; kids.

But, how easy is it to lose patience with insipid performers such as Ackland? Easy.

I think when supporters prefer tp play the kids, at times, it's not just about expectation of them to fill a senior spot right away, but it's a case of them being more desirable for the effort and commitment they show, than their senior counterparts; it sends a message.

Bottom line is, if seniors fail through injury or form or effort, then if the support list is made up predominantly of kids, then we have no choice but to select them.

I agree with you that if kids aren't ready, they aren't ready.

It goes to show that we need a balance of experience and kids in the reserves; Predergast, Sporn, Chambers, Longmuir, DeLuca...yeah right! :wink:
Author:  Blue Sombrero [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:24 am ]
Post subject: 
I think a lot depends on body size and position played.
KPP at 17 are usually several Kg short of being able to play against older opponents.
Mids and runners are generally smaller and faster so the difference isn't so great.
Grigg was on the point of being selected before being injured. Anderson has had a run and will pay more games when he is fit. Murphy and Gibbs are super footballers but both fit the mid/running player mould.
Hawthorn ara frightening at the moment. Not only are they killing sides on the field but they are also showing patience with a couple of top 10 picks in the twos.
Author:  Nicko Carstairs [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Well written RR. The hawks have a few players that have served their time in the reserves and are coming on. Patience and a few pre-seasons is what the new draftees need. Hopefully over the next two years a few like Kennedy, Grigg, Hampson and Bower will develop like Simpson, Fisher and Carazzo.
Author:  budzy [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Can't understand the rationale of those who hack into our kids, especially Raso who hasn't even had a full pre-season yet (BTW, how the @#$%&! does Raso get dropped to the Ant reserves after being named in the best players last week against Willy ...@#$%&! joke! :roll: ).

Sure, get stuck into those passengers/moneysponges who have been around a while but let the kids have a few full pre-seasons and some real gametime so they can find their feet before getting the axe out.
Author:  Siegfried [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Agree RR. No point selecting kids when they are not even playing well at VFL level. Give them time.

My only concern is whether we have the right people and resources at the Club to develop them as quickly as possible. West Coast have 4 full time development coaches...is this a reason behind Fletcher, Cox, Priddis etc coming through as rookies and suddenly, quickly, becoming A grade players?
Author:  Bozman [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
it is a very cut throat business when the way the whole list thing is structured, it requires in most cases for kids to be prematurely cut to allow for new kids to be drafted.

This may well be especially so for carlton this year, which will need to somehow make way for its draft picks in the upcoming draft.

there really should be an ability to have a bigger rookie list - and give clubs the option of putting those players who it thinks will need a long time to develop onto the rookie list (even tho they were drafted in the main draft), thereby leaving spots on the main list open. This will take the pressure off the kids in respect of taking up a position on the senior list when there is no prospect of them playing seniors.
Author:  ryan2000 [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm very paitaint with our kids.................

I sometimes loose paitence with how we are developing them.

But while we're on that..................I am the furtherest thing from a Pagan fan, BUT i will stand up in his defence on Davies and Norman!

Those two kids had all the talent in the world with no heart & no brains. I shudder to think how good those two could have been! That's not Denis' fault!
Author:  SurreyBlue [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Couldn't agree more RR.
Author:  Pafloyul [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
RiverRodent, don't you get it? It is not the kids some of us are impatient with.
Author:  thedominator [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think we need to remember the Pagan-Mitchell standoff here and its obvious effect on our youth development. It must be having a detrimental affect I dont care what anyone says. When our new coach is signed at years end he must bring in a development coach as part of his coaching staff. Pagan and Mitchell must go IMO. No if's no buts. The Voss/Thomas scenario mentioned on another post is an interesting one to consider. Hmmm???
Author:  Barnesy [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Pafloyul wrote:
RiverRodent, don't you get it? It is not the kids some of us are impatient with.


Point Above

I think it is more a lack of belief in the system at the club over recent years than the kids themselves.

We see kids at other clubs step up and do well and think well if we are losing week in week out, why don't we just give the kids a go.
Author:  Cazzesman [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sydney Blue wrote:
RR - It would be nice if the system gave them time but signing players to two year deals when they are drafted puts a hell of a lot of pressure on them to perform early. Carlton only gave Hartlett a one year deal after his initial two year signing on. Meeson seems in trouble at Adelaide- Brennan let go and there are others. It would suggest that the clubs are less patient than the supporters .

clubs should be forced to sign them on as apprentices and allow them four years before they have to start negotiating a new contract. Sure there could be out clauses for the club be they must be special circumstances.

Two years is not long enough and places to much unrealisitc expectations on kids


SB there is no real pressure on the kids to perform in the 1st two years...provided they do the right things on the training track and in their own time. The Coaching staff don't expect the kids to be world beaters, it's the supporters who do.

The 1st 2 years is where the kids have to show they are worthy of being given a 2nd contracted based on how they mature, how they react to injury, how they train and present themselves to the club and their team-mates. How they do the extras, take instruction and don't drop the lip if they don't get a game or maybe play in the VFL Reserves.

The 1st 2 years is about seeing how much they really want it. Remember that the start of year 2 is the 1st time they will do a full pre-season. How much they are prepared to give everything to establishing themselves as AFL players in that pre-season says alot about a players resolve.

It is in their 3rd and 4th years that performance really becomes the factor. I would suggest that kids that are cut after their initial 2 years have had some skeletons in the closet the club could not shake loose.

Harlett only got the 1 year extension because he needed to show the Coaching staff he really, really, really wants it. He wasn't the only one.

Regards Cazzesman
Author:  Rhys26 [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Barnesy wrote:
Pafloyul wrote:
RiverRodent, don't you get it? It is not the kids some of us are impatient with.


Point Above

I think it is more a lack of belief in the system at the club over recent years than the kids themselves.

We see kids at other clubs step up and do well and think well if we are losing week in week out, why don't we just give the kids a go.


Spot on, the current system of development at Carlton is as good as non-existent.
You can bet your house that if Josh Kennedy was at Port Adelaide he would be far more advanced that what he currently is at Carlton. For goodness sake our senior coach and development reserve coach don't even communicate. Its a bloody of joke of a system that we have!!
Author:  jimmae [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
*Slightly off-topic*

I thought LH played alright last year in the corresponding fixture...

The Vic Country team is a bit weak this year IMO, from what knowledge I have of last year's champs & writings about the place.
Author:  Nick [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Agree with those that say we seriously need to improve our development facilities to get the best out of our kids.

Remember reading Collingwood had two full-time development coaches :shock: Add that to their training facilities and it's not all that surprising that their kids are performing so well.

It's one thing to draft well, another to develop well and hopefully now with some money in the cofers, that will be one prime focus area along with more spending on recruiting and football departments.
Author:  AGRO [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
I am very patient with all the kids on our list.

I will even be patient with the kids we draft at Picks 1, 3, 19, 35, 51 and 67 from this years National Draft as well. :wink: :P
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cazzesman wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
RR - It would be nice if the system gave them time but signing players to two year deals when they are drafted puts a hell of a lot of pressure on them to perform early. Carlton only gave Hartlett a one year deal after his initial two year signing on. Meeson seems in trouble at Adelaide- Brennan let go and there are others. It would suggest that the clubs are less patient than the supporters .

clubs should be forced to sign them on as apprentices and allow them four years before they have to start negotiating a new contract. Sure there could be out clauses for the club be they must be special circumstances.

Two years is not long enough and places to much unrealisitc expectations on kids


SB there is no real pressure on the kids to perform in the 1st two years...provided they do the right things on the training track and in their own time. The Coaching staff don't expect the kids to be world beaters, it's the supporters who do.

The 1st 2 years is where the kids have to show they are worthy of being given a 2nd contracted based on how they mature, how they react to injury, how they train and present themselves to the club and their team-mates. How they do the extras, take instruction and don't drop the lip if they don't get a game or maybe play in the VFL Reserves.

The 1st 2 years is about seeing how much they really want it. Remember that the start of year 2 is the 1st time they will do a full pre-season. How much they are prepared to give everything to establishing themselves as AFL players in that pre-season says alot about a players resolve.

It is in their 3rd and 4th years that performance really becomes the factor. I would suggest that kids that are cut after their initial 2 years have had some skeletons in the closet the club could not shake loose.

Harlett only got the 1 year extension because he needed to show the Coaching staff he really, really, really wants it. He wasn't the only one.

Regards Cazzesman


Caz I can see the club point of view in not wanting to spend time with what effectively could be dead wood but that happens in the real world all the time . I've trained quite a number of apprentices in my time and guys you often thought we going to be totally useless in years 1 and 2 can often knuckle down in year 4 and become quite compotent trades people . We are not given the luxury of moving them on their way after two years its up to us to try and make something of them . Wether the kid performs on the football field or performs on the training track we are still asking a lot- Particually with the kids who have been dragged interstate who dont go home to mum and dad of a night .

I still dont think the AFL has this draft / list system perfected .

Just my point of view you are a lot closer to it than me
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