Interesting that the Bullants have had 2 shockers against Frankston and Williiamstown in the last fortnight.

Some of the players I would like to see in the navy blue have peformed poorly at a crucial time.

With our pathetic peformance against the Dawks and the weeks rest it gives the fringe players 2 weeks to strut their stuff.

Now I know that Ackland has been mentioned on numerous occasions in the last week but if he plays against the shockers we may as well pack up and support someone else. And Carlos is not a ruckman. Period. Get him back in defence where he belongs.

Therefore IMO there should be 2 new ruckman slotted in this week. Its a no lose situation. We cant get any worse in the tall man department.

So where does Hampson play last week. In the seconds(Bullants Seconds) and often in attack. Does that make sense to anyone particularly as the Hawthorn game was before the Willie game.
Reading the match reports by the rodent( compulsive reading well done river) it seems Aisake , Jacobs and Hampson are not spending enough time in the ruck. Given Ackland and Carlos ' efforts lately I would think these 3 guys would be given every opportunity to impress . Doesnt seem to be to case . Even more glaring an oversight when McLaren is off the scene. And why isnt Aisake playing this week. Nobody seems to know.

Who is the third person who relays the info from D to B and B to D. Is there anyone. This situation is farcical and both parties should have been told they must communicate.

Its almost a given that our fringe players are not quite coming on indirectly because of the fractured relationship between Pagan and Mitchell. Its not just the ruckman. Why would Kennedy and Hartlett spend time in the ruck (They are both shorter than Ackland) with Whitnall obviously not up to it. Why wont Mitchell play Edwards in the play more.

The overall impression I get is the 2's and the 1's are not in sync.
Yeah the 10/12 rule is a joke and there are other factors but in the end the Mitchell Pagan thing has had a negative impact on player's development IMO.

Obviously this is only going to be a problem this year as one or both will be arsed off at seasons end. Its a shame something couldnt have been done earlier.

It may or may not still be an issue next season depending on two things:

1. If either Pagan and/or Mitchell is shown the door
2. We field our own reserves team.

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Wisdom tells me I am nothing
Love tells me I am everything
Between the two my life flows

why does shit keepin coming up.

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"I can't wait to win a premiership with this club" - Fev

because the coach not talking to the reserves coach and vice versa in a so called professional industry with a 20 million dollar turnover is in one word

SHIT

Its also shit that someone whether it be Icke, Swan, Sticks or Pratt hasnt actually put a stop to it by not delivering some ultimatums.

A lot of people at my work shit me and I know i shit a lot of people.

Doesnt mean you dont talk about business when you have too.

They will. At season's end when Pagan goes. That, unlike last year, is when the payout is at a reasonable enough figure. The very fact Mitchell is still here tells me it won't be him going. As "The Age" said eariler in the year, Mitchell's considered long term at the club so they weren't going to sack him for the sake of one year.

Hopefully BM can keep coaching the ants and Carlton can set up a genuine reserves team to be coached by Brett Ratten.

I agree that hopefully BM continues with the Ants next year, only that we have our own reserves team coached by Brett Ratten. I think that Mitchell has been a very negative and selfish influence at Carlton.

Anyone who sees the Ants games when they are on TV might have noted that Barry likes to bleed about how "tall" he is now forced to play the team. This would suggest that the MC are having more say in selection, but BM is as keen as ever to distance himself from it. Wait for the "tell all" interview at the end of the year if he is sacked at Carlton. It will happen.

Id like to eventually see Ratten coaching the senior team and its not beyond the realms that it might happen this year if any more 100 point floggings happen.

I suspect that Richard Pratt would be keen to appoint a big name to coach as part of his "legacy" to the club. Given Swann is on board and Eddie keeps talking up Nathan Buckley, don't be surprised if we see Mick Malthouse at the reigns next year.....

Carlos will need a season or two in the ruck before you could put a period next the statement that he is not a ruckman. He may well be. Hard to tell after 6 games as a backup ruckman.

I would like to see him become a backman (chb) though.

I don't know why Mitchell is seen as invaluable. He wasnt a real carlton son. Many players come through from the Ants to the seniors not ready to play. Contrast with Hawks and Box Hill. Players do their apprenticeship there and hit the senior team running.

Another example of the boys club and sticks friendship overriding common sense

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T E A M

Interesting timing of your post Keogh, as I was having a conversation about this just yesterday with a work colleague. He can't believe that we haven't got rid of one of them and thinks the situation is ridiculous, especially given the amount of money that Pratt has brought into the club.

It's pretty hard to disagree with that. His opinion was that it was an unnecessary distraction and something that every other club would have dealt with. He also feelds that it also makes the club look unprofessional.

It's interesting to get an outside perspective.

I thougt Barry would have the decency to resign after what happened last year. Nothing against the guy, but actively whiteanting the senior coach is unacceptable behaviour. If Dennis had been sacked, sure apply and good luck if he wins the job, but the way he and his clique went about things only added to the destability.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Agree Mark. The sooner Mitchell is gone the better!

Unfortunately this situation won't be solved until season's end. Looks like we will be having a reserves team in the VFL which means Mitchell can stay on with the Bullants. This will divorce him completely from the CFC.

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WE ARE CARLTON, WE ARE ARROGANT AND WE LOVE IT!

Agree, an absurd situation.

How can any legitimate football person justify this. Then again, Mitch is a good mate of Sticks.....

Don't forget Pagan was pivotal in Ackland's recruitment, so its only human nature that he may not want to see a replacement developed from the Ants, especially under Mitchell's watch.

Blues Clues, have a look at the doco "Tall, Dark and O'hAilpin".

You'll see an interview with Santy in which he says that Pagan approached him and asked whether his brother would be interested in coming to Carlton. Hey presto, Aisake joins us. Earlier this year, Pagan was interviewed by KB and mentioned that Aisake is taller and faster than Santy, and may well debut this year, although it might be better to give him more games in the VFL.

Make no mistake, if Santy and Aisake become stars, Pagan will be entitled to a fair bit of the credit for their acquisition and development. It's unlikely that Pagan would wish to sabotage their efforts.

From what I've seen of Setanta in the ruck he's done a pretty good job... we could do a hell of a lot worse... he actually tries to tap it to someone and not just tap it.

Why would one get rid of Mitchell when he's done his job here well. The same can't be said for Pagan, who's been a disgrace. Pagan's only marking time until he's paid out so for the sake of a year why get rid of Mitchell. Wasn't if it was going to affect us winning a premiership. He was asked to apply for the job and got stumped at the last minute by the AFL. Not his fault our useless senior coach is too stubborn to talk to him. He should be forced to. Properly run organisations get rid of their bad employees and keep their good one's, not vice versa. The only reason Denis is still here is because we couldn't pay him out last year. I think the clue as to who's leaving might be seen in the fact that Mitchell's still here. If Pagan was considered long term I'd imagine Mitchell might not be here but seeing he's not it might tell us was Mitchell hasn't been sacked.

swann was the go-between for the bullants v willy game. he prepared a written report for pagan.

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

He's been with the club in off-field capacities for 10 years now. As far as we can tell, he hasn't been seriously considered by any other club for a role, despite having heaps of experience.

He has also been a big beneficiary of the experienced players on our list over the last couple of years who struggled to consolidate senior positions but who were very good players at VFL level because of their mature bodies and experience. Deluca, Sporn, Wiggins, Davies, Bannister, Teague, McGrath, Livo and others. That enabled him to win h&a games against unaligned teams without players of that standard and aligned clubs playing skinny youngsters. But when he had to try to match it in the finals and other sides loaded up with big-bodied AFL players, we sank without trace.

Even Mitchell points out that his team is struggling this year because of the turnover of senior players. Sitting at 4-45, it doesn't appear that Mitchell is able to weave heaps of magic. His policy of getting numbers behind the ball isn't an original plan.

As has been said by others, our youngsters don't seem to hit the ground running when they are selected for AFL games.

But the issue isn't whether he does a good job. It's whether there were and are other coaches who could do as well or better. If we can get someone better, why would you be so insistent that we retain Mitchell?

Maybe we could go into the salary cap penalties, the need to overcome resistance from self-indulgent senior players, etc. etc. just one more time? No, I can hear the horrified shrieks from cyberspace, so I won't

Yep, they were always going to worry about locking in a master coach at VFL level as the first priority. Ingenious really.

Poor guy. How could he possibly know that all hell would break loose if he made an unsuccessful application. Like, just because he was an AFL player for 15 years or so, and has been at Carlton for 10 years or so as an assistant of various sorts doesn't mean he knows the way things work, does it? And the reports of tension between Pagan and him in the months before the board meeting don't have to indicate that he was making his move well ahead of the "invitation" from the board during the meeting, do they?

Strange, isn't it? You would have thought that if Carlton had the power to direct Pagan to communicate with Mitchell, Pagan could be sacked if he didn't. Wow, that would enable Carlton to get rid of Pagan without having to pay him out Hmmm ... could that mean that the Board doesn't have the power to do so? But surely if such a refusal hurts the club, the Board can make such a reasonable direction? Maybe, the Board breached the contract with Pagan by re-signing Mitchell. See, coaches would usually have written guarantees that the coach has a right of veto over football department appointments to avoid them being lumbered with staff they don't trust or respect. But I'm sure that Sticks and Gleeson came up with their own little loophole - as Bullants' coach, Mitchell wasn't in the football department!!!! Brilliant. Only one small problem. That meant that if Mitchell wasn't part of the football department, the club could hardly protest if he didn't talk to him. Mexican standoff.

What seemed to be a stroke of genius by Sticks in presenting Pagan with a fait accompli has now become a major embarrassment to the club and an impediment to our development. Sticks and Gleeson, and whoever else joined them to stop Swann resolving the problem when he took over, should be condemned for their stupidity and selfishness.

Properly run organisations ensure that they have a unified team at the top. They don't go around trying to create hostility, rivalry and distrust at the top level. We had plenty of that in the last Board. Not surprisingly, the members voted to eliminate the factionalism.

You were all for anything that would humiliate Pagan into retiring, Jim. You thought it was great that Mitchell was re-signed from this point of view. Seems that the stunt backfired.

Interesting - I thought you said it was because of the AFL.

Good to see you really got your hands dirty by trying to deal with the "jobs for the mates" angle. Maybe governments everywhere should have you on retainer. Any time one of them appoint a friend or party hack to a lucrative post, you'll be able to state categorically that he or she must have been the best person for the job because otherwise someone else would have been appointed.

I dont think Mitchell is senior material but he is coaching the dregs of a poorly balanced list.
We have lacked long term planning. We've topped up with discards and utility players instead of drafting runners and ball winners.

One only has to look at our ruck combination of Ackland and McLaren to see the effects of Denis' foresight.
Lets hope Icke has the balls to take control of the list structure and implements a long term plan to develop a well balanced, structured list.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.