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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Elwood Blues1 wrote:
winfieldblue wrote:
our list is over rated.
kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right.


You would have to have concerns over some of our players and you have to expect some to fail......doing the simple things right is probably a very good point.
A team like the Roos who are not overly blessed with talent tend to do the basics very well..the Swans won a flag doing the basics very well....


Hence DP is shite.

If the Roos can play for Laidley :roll:

Then its a sorry state of affairs.

DP currently represents failure.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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winfieldblue wrote:
our list is over rated.
kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right.


Overrated by us perhaps, but I'd say still developing is a better term. Kids need time, especially when there's not a solid group of senior players above them to show them the ropes.

Right at this point the player acknowledged as our best midfielder is a kid in his second season with around 20 games to his name. And when Nick Stevens is fit, the same kid is still our second best midfielder. He's getting support from Carrazzo, Simpson and Bentick--Scotland, at a pinch, playing off half back. Scotland is the only bloke there that could be called a bona fide senior player. Not only do we expect a lot from the talent we do have, we're asking a hell of a lot from them as well.

Fast forward to three years from now. Regardless of where we finish on the ladder, do you reckon our newest draftees will find it harder or tougher starting their careers when they have the likes of Murphy, Carrazzo, Simpson, Bentick, Gibbs et al above them, guys that will be approaching their early-mid twenties with 80-100 games under their belts?

We just have no core group of senior talent above our kids. Our senior talent is our kids. It's a bloody tough ask for them in anyone's language.

I reckon we have some pretty exciting, and capable players on our list right now. They just need time to develop.

Our failure to utilise the draft properly around the late 90s is killing us as much, if not more, than the draft penalties ever could. This point cannot be highlighted enough.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:16 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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bluebeard wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
winfieldblue wrote:
our list is over rated.
kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right.


You would have to have concerns over some of our players and you have to expect some to fail......doing the simple things right is probably a very good point.
A team like the Roos who are not overly blessed with talent tend to do the basics very well..the Swans won a flag doing the basics very well....


Hence DP is shite.

If the Roos can play for Laidley :roll:

Then its a sorry state of affairs.

DP currently represents failure.


Pagan may represent failure, and yes, my discontent with him seems to grow with each game. However, in his defence, to continue the Kangaroos example, and following on from my post above about our lack of experienced talent...

How do you reckon Murphy and Gibbs would be going if they had the likes of Harvey, Simpson and Shannon Grant showing them the ropes, taking the oppositions better players etc...

Pagan is guilty of some of the sins were paying for right now, but he's not accountable for the biggest noose around our neck, which is our totally incompetent use of the draft until the last couple of years. (I think it's fair to give Pagan some slack, not total infallability mind, but some slack for his recyled players policy during our draft penalties.)

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:39 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Fair call.

He did inherit a terible palying list.

I am sick of using it as an excuse though.

New blood is needed in the coaching box.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Great thread and comparison.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:55 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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there is a difference between an excuse and a reason.

we have few senior players that will take us through the next 4 years - Denis is working to develop that core and then new kids will find it far easier.

We can make judgments on his efforts at development, his tactics etc but I find it so stupid to label him as something akin to Hitler - stupid and off little worth to the debate.

Take him to task by all means

and recognize the limitations he works within - including the funding problems etc.

If Pratt keeps Denis for another year - what then? Is Dick a flower?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:30 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

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Can someone do the age of all of these picks for a comparison i think you may find we are a bit lite on the 24-28 year old stars. or high draft picks

Treat them like a good red :-D
My 2c


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 am 
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Harry Vallence

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4thchicken wrote:
more than enough talent - just need the development put into them.

IF we assume that kouta retires (on form he could go again), our best team for next season would be

FB - thornton, Setanta, flint
HB - Scotland, Waite, Lappin
C - Walker, gibbs, Simpson
HF - Kennedy, Whitnall, Fisher
FF - Houlahan, Fevola, Betts
Followers - Aisake, murphy, Stevens
Bench - hampson, Carazzo, Blackwell, Grigg

First 3 emergencies - Russell, Bower, benjamin

That assumes kouta retires (though the last 2 games would suggest he could go around again).

Also sitting on the sidelines would be bentick, hartlett, anderson, wiggins, edwards, austin, and all the draft picks for this years draft (at this stage would appear to be along the lines of ND - 1,3, 21,37, etc (assuming melbourne go past us). Picks 1 and 3 would be expected to be in first 22 by the end of the 08 season pushing 2 more players out of our 22 and into the depth column (say carazzo and hampson). The only real losses retirements on the horizon would be lappin, and perhaps lance - and they would be after the 08 season


Good post. The point being made here is that we have the talent, we just don't have the age.

In three years time we will only be definitely losing 2 star players through retirement (Kouta and Lappin). That will be a lot less than most clubs. Yes there may be a few others, but that will be well and truly compensated by the growth of the youngsters below them. When Walker, Gibbs, Murph, Simmo, etc hit their early to mid 20s, Fev, Stevens, Scotland, Waite, etc will be in their late 20s and we will then have the right mix of talent, age, experience. We have the talent, we are just not at the right stage of their development yet.

The only major hole I see is that we need a mobile rap ruckman desperately. If Hampo or Aisake don't come on like we expect, that will be the major hicup to our premiership aspirations. We'll need to trade for one which may take away a good player, or we'll have to lose a high draft pick (which may be fair compensation to make our run at a bunch of flags in 2010-2015).


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:37 am 
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Harry Vallence

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nytdog,

You've been too long in the US mate if you reckon we need a mobile RAP ruckman.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:49 am 
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Harry Vallence

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kkk wrote:
nytdog,

You've been too long in the US mate if you reckon we need a mobile RAP ruckman.


haha, nice. can't stand rap personally.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:08 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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I just cannot understand some supporters. We are expected to give every young player a run in the seniors and in some instance we state that we don’t mind loosing a few games while doing so. But when we loose a few games, we are all up in arms about it and what is worst is when the team is loosing, Pagan is at fault and when the team winning it’s Ratten & Co who get all the credit. Never mind that we lost our engine in Stevens & Cloke and with everybody wanting to play all the youth. We forget that we need a combination of older and younger players in the side. With the older players doing all the tuff stuff while guiding the youth on how it is done.
If you don’t have the mix or play players that are no way up to the level at the moment, there is no way Carlton will be any good for long time to come. This is because the youth think they are senior players and there is no competition coming up or the club refuses to make changes. These players work rate is poor at times, and they are getting less than 10 possessions a game all year. You take Russell who is as soft as an 18 year old junior yet he played most of the year and has been nursed. This is not good for his development as he has no work rate. If we drop him for a game or two he might come back little bit more aggressive and increase his work rate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:17 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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nytdog wrote:
Carlton vs WCE Comparison

Picks 1-5: 4 / 2
Picks 6-10: 2 / 1
Picks 11-15: 2/ 3
Picks 16-20: 3 / 4
Picks 21-25: 2 / 4
Picks 26-30: 1 / 6


nytdog wrote:
The point being made here is that we have the talent, we just don't have the age.


So West Coast have 20 top 30 picks versus our 14.

That's 42% more top 30 picks.

Seems about even... :P

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:04 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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GWS wrote:
nytdog wrote:
Carlton vs WCE Comparison

Picks 1-5: 4 / 2
Picks 6-10: 2 / 1
Picks 11-15: 2/ 3
Picks 16-20: 3 / 4
Picks 21-25: 2 / 4
Picks 26-30: 1 / 6


nytdog wrote:
The point being made here is that we have the talent, we just don't have the age.


So West Coast have 20 top 30 picks versus our 14.

That's 42% more top 30 picks.

Seems about even... :P


:-D Nice.

We have 7 'years' worth of top 30 picks and they have 10.

Will take a while to catch up to them in that respect. If we get some extra picks in the top 30 it will speed things up a bit. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:17 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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camelboy wrote:
Pagan is guilty of some of the sins were paying for right now, but he's not accountable for the biggest noose around our neck, which is our totally incompetent use of the draft until the last couple of years. (I think it's fair to give Pagan some slack, not total infallability mind, but some slack for his recyled players policy during our draft penalties.)


Indeed. Exactly. Yep. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:23 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Jarusa wrote:
Will take a while to catch up to them in that respect. If we get some extra picks in the top 30 it will speed things up a bit. :wink:


And then of course there's the actual quality of those selected.

Kerr at Pick 18 or Russell at Pick 9?

We could have 38 top 30 picks on our list but if they can't find the @#$%&! football (or don't know what to do with it when they do) then what's the @#$%&! use?

This thread's a bit silly really... :?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:05 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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West Coast have 50% less top 10 picks then us, I would say that evens the 50% more over 10 picks they have however. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:08 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I agree with 46% of the posts in this topic. I disagree with 99% of the others. And don't understand 100% of the rest. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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GWS wrote:
nytdog wrote:
Carlton vs WCE Comparison

Picks 1-5: 4 / 2
Picks 6-10: 2 / 1
Picks 11-15: 2/ 3
Picks 16-20: 3 / 4
Picks 21-25: 2 / 4
Picks 26-30: 1 / 6


nytdog wrote:
The point being made here is that we have the talent, we just don't have the age.


So West Coast have 20 top 30 picks versus our 14.

That's 42% more top 30 picks.

Seems about even... :P


Actually its about 21 to 17 when you consider that we have 4 FS picks and a zone pick that would go top 30 and they have one FS pick. So it's a little bit more even. Plus we have 6 to 3 in the top 10 to even things out further.

Take a look at Carlton compared with Adelaide:

Pick: Carlton - Adelaide
1-5: 4 - 0
6-10: 2 - 2
11-15: 2 - 2
16-20: 3 - 5
21-25: 2 - 2
26-30: 1 - 1
31-35: 1 - 3
36-40: 3 - 2
41-45: 3 - 0
46-50: 1 - 2
51-60: 1 - 3
61-70: 1 - 2
71+: 3 - 2
Rookie/PSD: 7 - 14
FS/Zone: 4 - 1
Total: 38 - 41

Top 10: 6 vs 2
Top 30: 14 v 12

Now if you tell me that Adelaide have more raw talent on their list than us, we really have some serious issues with our recruiting. Give it a few years and we should be a stronger force than Adelaide is currently.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:32 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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nytdog wrote:
GWS wrote:
nytdog wrote:
Carlton vs WCE Comparison

Picks 1-5: 4 / 2
Picks 6-10: 2 / 1
Picks 11-15: 2/ 3
Picks 16-20: 3 / 4
Picks 21-25: 2 / 4
Picks 26-30: 1 / 6


nytdog wrote:
The point being made here is that we have the talent, we just don't have the age.


So West Coast have 20 top 30 picks versus our 14.

That's 42% more top 30 picks.

Seems about even... :P


Actually its about 21 to 17 when you consider that we have 4 FS picks and a zone pick that would go top 30 and they have one FS pick. So it's a little bit more even. Plus we have 6 to 3 in the top 10 to even things out further.

Take a look at Carlton compared with Adelaide:

Pick: Carlton - Adelaide
1-5: 4 - 0
6-10: 2 - 2
11-15: 2 - 2
16-20: 3 - 5
21-25: 2 - 2
26-30: 1 - 1
31-35: 1 - 3
36-40: 3 - 2
41-45: 3 - 0
46-50: 1 - 2
51-60: 1 - 3
61-70: 1 - 2
71+: 3 - 2
Rookie/PSD: 7 - 14
FS/Zone: 4 - 1
Total: 38 - 41

Top 10: 6 vs 2
Top 30: 14 v 12

Now if you tell me that Adelaide have more raw talent on their list than us, we really have some serious issues with our recruiting. Give it a few years and we should be a stronger force than Adelaide is currently.


Going ok if they can drop Luke Jericho......they will always be competitive given their resources, go home to SA player content and ability to train juniors in the SANFL and pick the hidden gems from a two team state..

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Adelaide are a different animal all together. They have 7 players listed that will be over 30 by the end of this season.

These are the blokes who over-run young teams like ours. And if it's not the experienced players doing the damage because they're being well held by our top youngsters, it's the next level who are playing on our 1-10 game veterans.

The Crows won't win a flag in my opinion, but they'll come close. They've got this and next year to do it or they'll have to undertake a fairly quick re-build program.


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