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| Do we have enough talent yet? http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16368 |
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| Author: | nytdog [ Tue May 29, 2007 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Do we have enough talent yet? |
Carlton vs WCE Comparison Picks 1-5: 4 / 2 Picks 6-10: 2 / 1 Picks 11-15: 2/ 3 Picks 16-20: 3 / 4 Picks 21-25: 2 / 4 Picks 26-30: 1 / 6 Picks 31-35: 1 / 1 Picks 36-40: 3 / 3 Picks 41-45: 3 / 2 Picks 46-50: 1 / 1 Picks 51-60: 1 / 3 Picks 61-70: 1 / 0 Picks 70 up: 3 / 1 Rookie & PSD: 7 / 6 FS & Zone: 4 / 1 Conclusions: - We have more picks at the high end of the draft (6 top 10 picks vs 3) - But its very close in top 20 (11 vs 10) - Mid picks between 21 and 30 we are killed (3 vs 10). Does this mean that our selections in this range have historically been poor picks? - BUT, we have 3 FS picks vs 1. FS are at the worst rated a pick 40 but are usually much better. Waite and Whitnall would have gone much higher. And Kouta (a zone pick) woulda gone up the top. So you could say that picks 21-30 are actually 6 vs 10. Still not good for us. - Not much difference in the rest of the picks Overall we lack some talent in the mid range but we have much more talent right up the top of the draft. This means we have the cattle, it's just about using and developing them as well as a team like WC. This year we are going to add another few picks much higher than WC so we should no longer have excuses of not having the talent. |
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| Author: | blueman [ Tue May 29, 2007 6:15 am ] |
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From here on, development and coaching skills are what Carlton needs to re surface as a football power. This years draft picks will significantly add to the already sufficent talent that will allow Carlton to play in the finals soon. There will also be more help for Victorian clubs - now that their 'plight' has been recognised by the AFL. Although we mighn't get much of this future assistance. |
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| Author: | BIBI01 [ Tue May 29, 2007 9:11 am ] |
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IMO we have almost enough talent on the list, after the coming draft we will be very well placed but it is 1 thing to have talent and another to actually deliver on your talent. |
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| Author: | The Duke [ Tue May 29, 2007 9:43 am ] |
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Yes, we have the talent!! Now we have to waite til they're cooked. 2 years from today we'll be very hard to beat. We'll have the 12-14 100+ players that we want, plus blokes like Gibbs, Murphy, Setanta, Blackwell and JK on or above 50 games then we'll have an Eagles-like list. |
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| Author: | ryan2000 [ Tue May 29, 2007 9:50 am ] |
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I don't think it matters what picks you get, it's just who you chose with those picks that really makes the difference. I'm not at all sold that we have used our picks well just yet. |
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| Author: | nytdog [ Tue May 29, 2007 9:59 am ] |
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I guess the reason i put the post up is to present some facts to show that in terms of raw draft picks, we should have similar talent to WC and it's just a matter of waiting till the boys develop their bodies plus gain some experience. The club should have no excuses in a few years. The talent is there. And I don't think we need to tank because we should have enough right now, plus we will get a couple of extra high picks this year without needing to tank. |
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| Author: | AGRO [ Tue May 29, 2007 10:04 am ] |
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The problem with the "anti-tankers" around here is they actually believe Carlton is actually tanking for low draft picks. When they actually wake up and smell their coffee - they actually realise that we are not actually good enough to tank. |
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| Author: | Elwood Blues1 [ Tue May 29, 2007 10:17 am ] |
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I dont think we have enough talent yet.....this list will struggle to beat the better teams now and in the future if we dont beef it up with some A grade gamebreakers who can win games. Another two seasons of drafting with some decent early picks is what we need and be nice to get some bonus talent off the rookie list like WC did when they fluked Cox, Fletcher etc |
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| Author: | bluebeard [ Tue May 29, 2007 10:41 am ] |
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If you added a couple of 23 or 24 yro players (e.g. Del Santo) and 2 more top ten picks we would have a side that could play finals. But you wont have a team that could win a flag until you recruit a ruckman as well. I hope that we start to push next year...but realistically I think 2010 is when we have a genuine chance. |
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| Author: | nytdog [ Tue May 29, 2007 12:52 pm ] |
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Elwood Blues1 wrote: I dont think we have enough talent yet.....this list will struggle to beat the better teams now and in the future if we dont beef it up with some A grade gamebreakers who can win games.
Another two seasons of drafting with some decent early picks is what we need and be nice to get some bonus talent off the rookie list like WC did when they fluked Cox, Fletcher etc So what you're saying is that Walker, Murphy, Gibbs, Waite, Fevola aren't enough in terms of game breakers? And we don't expect Grigg, Benji or Russell to have any major impact going forward? Clearly the list will struggle now because they are all too young. Their bodies aren't yet built up for long tough AFL seasons. But in 3 years time, still not enough talent. We have pretty much the same mix of draft picks that WC have and they are the dominant team at the minute. How many game breakers do they have? Judd, Kerr? Any others? |
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| Author: | AGRO [ Tue May 29, 2007 12:58 pm ] |
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nytdog wrote: Elwood Blues1 wrote: I dont think we have enough talent yet.....this list will struggle to beat the better teams now and in the future if we dont beef it up with some A grade gamebreakers who can win games. Another two seasons of drafting with some decent early picks is what we need and be nice to get some bonus talent off the rookie list like WC did when they fluked Cox, Fletcher etc So what you're saying is that Walker, Murphy, Gibbs, Waite, Fevola aren't enough in terms of game breakers? And we don't expect Grigg, Benji or Russell to have any major impact going forward? Clearly the list will struggle now because they are all too young. Their bodies aren't yet built up for long tough AFL seasons. But in 3 years time, still not enough talent. We have pretty much the same mix of draft picks that WC have and they are the dominant team at the minute. How many game breakers do they have? Judd, Kerr? Any others? Its not the game breakers its the more mature mid-range players that shine on the back of these game breakers. In 3 years time we will have 3 more first round draft picks on our list and possibly a 4th if we finish with a first round priority pick this year. And hopefully our current crop of 21/22 year olds will be more mature in body and experience in 3 years time which will give the list a structure to be properly competitive - this is where Walker, Murphy, Gibbs et al will really shine. |
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| Author: | nytdog [ Tue May 29, 2007 1:06 pm ] |
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AGRO wrote: nytdog wrote: Elwood Blues1 wrote: I dont think we have enough talent yet.....this list will struggle to beat the better teams now and in the future if we dont beef it up with some A grade gamebreakers who can win games. Another two seasons of drafting with some decent early picks is what we need and be nice to get some bonus talent off the rookie list like WC did when they fluked Cox, Fletcher etc So what you're saying is that Walker, Murphy, Gibbs, Waite, Fevola aren't enough in terms of game breakers? And we don't expect Grigg, Benji or Russell to have any major impact going forward? Clearly the list will struggle now because they are all too young. Their bodies aren't yet built up for long tough AFL seasons. But in 3 years time, still not enough talent. We have pretty much the same mix of draft picks that WC have and they are the dominant team at the minute. How many game breakers do they have? Judd, Kerr? Any others? Its not the game breakers its the more mature mid-range players that shine on the back of these game breakers. In 3 years time we will have 3 more first round draft picks on our list and possibly a 4th if we finish with a first round priority pick this year. And hopefully our current crop of 21/22 year olds will be more mature in body and experience in 3 years time which will give the list a structure to be properly competitive - this is where Walker, Murphy, Gibbs et al will really shine. Agro so your point is what? That we do have enough talent right now and that we should be playing the best team week in week out to win? Or do you still think that we should only play kids right now and get thrashed each week. I hate losing, but I prefer to lose by putting our best team on the park, and giving ourselves the chance to win... which is what we're doing right now. Tanking involves playing more kids than what we should. Like dropping Lance, Kouta and Lappin... which is what you were calling for earlier in the season. Have you changd your tune now or do you still advocate dropping the experienced players? You have been saying we "MUST" get the PP otherwise we wont have the talent to be competitive. But now it looks like you agree with me that we have the picks/talent now and we just need to develop it properly. |
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| Author: | Elwood Blues1 [ Tue May 29, 2007 1:34 pm ] |
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nytdog wrote: Elwood Blues1 wrote: I dont think we have enough talent yet.....this list will struggle to beat the better teams now and in the future if we dont beef it up with some A grade gamebreakers who can win games. Another two seasons of drafting with some decent early picks is what we need and be nice to get some bonus talent off the rookie list like WC did when they fluked Cox, Fletcher etc So what you're saying is that Walker, Murphy, Gibbs, Waite, Fevola aren't enough in terms of game breakers? And we don't expect Grigg, Benji or Russell to have any major impact going forward? Clearly the list will struggle now because they are all too young. Their bodies aren't yet built up for long tough AFL seasons. But in 3 years time, still not enough talent. We have pretty much the same mix of draft picks that WC have and they are the dominant team at the minute. How many game breakers do they have? Judd, Kerr? Any others? Fev is the only gamebreaker we have...he wins games. On what I have seen from our kids I would like to cover my bets with a bit more talent to supplement them.... You expect some of them to fail cos thats the nature of the business for example Jordan Russell should be giving us a similar output that Pendlebury is from Collingwood....the Collingwood kid has been in the system less years and is no natural adonis but is impacting games. I have not see too much of that from our lot.....I'd like to do what Hawthorn have done and give myself more chances to find impact players by having some more picks at the better talent and having a deeper pool of kids to rebuild with..... |
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| Author: | blu944 [ Tue May 29, 2007 1:41 pm ] |
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While we have players like Teaguey and Bannister who wont get a call up regardless of how well they train or play in the two's, then there's certainly more room for talent. Aside from that, we can't really know how we are going for youth until we get to see how the current ones we have develop. If 5 of the 6 blokes we took in 06 become walk up starts in the 22, then we're really well set up, but history shows we'll be lucky if 2 of the 6 become long term senior players. |
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| Author: | Elwood Blues1 [ Tue May 29, 2007 1:44 pm ] |
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blu944 wrote: Aside from that, we can't really know how we are going for youth until we get to see how the current ones we have develop. If 5 of the 6 blokes we took in 06 become walk up starts in the 22, then we're really well set up, but history shows we'll be lucky if 2 of the 6 become long term senior players. Fair comment.... |
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| Author: | budzy [ Tue May 29, 2007 2:01 pm ] |
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Dear hughesy, Can we please procure 3 top 20 picks in the '07 National draft please. Can 2 of those picks be used on highly skilled hard nut inside mids, while the other on a highly skilled pacy outside mid. or Can we just get the 1 top 20 pick and sign up Chris Judd. Thanks. 
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| Author: | winfieldblue [ Tue May 29, 2007 2:22 pm ] |
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our list is over rated. kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right. |
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| Author: | ryan2000 [ Tue May 29, 2007 3:01 pm ] |
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winfieldblue wrote: our list is over rated.
kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right. Yeah, i dunno..............i can certainly see how you would think that, but i have faith in this list. I think we have a good list which is lacking in confidence. Like the 'Walker' incident the other day. Could have easilly slotted that goal. EASILLY, instead..........well, we all know what happened. The point i'm trying to make is that Walker didn't stuff that up due to his inability to kick the goal, he stuffed it up from a lack of confidence. |
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| Author: | 4thchicken [ Tue May 29, 2007 3:09 pm ] |
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more than enough talent - just need the development put into them. IF we assume that kouta retires (on form he could go again), our best team for next season would be FB - thornton, Setanta, flint HB - Scotland, Waite, Lappin C - Walker, gibbs, Simpson HF - Kennedy, Whitnall, Fisher FF - Houlahan, Fevola, Betts Followers - Aisake, murphy, Stevens Bench - hampson, Carazzo, Blackwell, Grigg First 3 emergencies - Russell, Bower, benjamin That assumes kouta retires (though the last 2 games would suggest he could go around again). Also sitting on the sidelines would be bentick, hartlett, anderson, wiggins, edwards, austin, and all the draft picks for this years draft (at this stage would appear to be along the lines of ND - 1,3, 21,37, etc (assuming melbourne go past us). Picks 1 and 3 would be expected to be in first 22 by the end of the 08 season pushing 2 more players out of our 22 and into the depth column (say carazzo and hampson). The only real losses retirements on the horizon would be lappin, and perhaps lance - and they would be after the 08 season |
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| Author: | Elwood Blues1 [ Tue May 29, 2007 3:14 pm ] |
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winfieldblue wrote: our list is over rated.
kids try hard and are coming along...but we expect miracles and the kids try too hard sometimes and miss doing the simple things right. You would have to have concerns over some of our players and you have to expect some to fail......doing the simple things right is probably a very good point. A team like the Roos who are not overly blessed with talent tend to do the basics very well..the Swans won a flag doing the basics very well.... |
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