I was talking to a friend of mine and he was talking to Sean Triplett who sits on the bench for the Blues during games and effectively mans the magnetic board for DP amongst other things.

He told him that the issue that some of the Aints players are facing is the different styles of play that BM and DP are implementing which are the opposite ends of the spectrum - high possession, chip, chip footy vs contested, one on one, free for all, and it is this that is having an adverse affect on the players.

I'm no expert on tactics and I occasionally catch an Aints game but would there be some truth to this?

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

TOTALLY!

It's the main reason i'd rather see Kennedy play in the Ants. Not because i dont think he's good enough for the seniors, but because he's development would be better suited based around the game that BM plays.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Could be right there DUC.

Blackwell seems to be having difficulties in that regard. He does accumulate possessions in the seniors, but he seems to look for a short target beside him rather than looking up the ground for a direct option. He also tends to hatch the ball after an uncontested mark, seemingly waiting for an uncontested option to open up. When he tried to kick long into F50 against the Crows, he didn't make good decisions. I think he tends to derail the forward momentum on occasions - perhaps the reason he sits on the bench as much as he does despite winning the ball consistently.

It's not as though a long-kicking style wouldn't succeed at the Bullants. The Bullants' strengths are the same as ours, given that the AFL-listed players are its most talented. When you've got tall players like Hartlett, JK, Aisake, Jacobs, Hampson, Austin, Bower, Edwards, Austin and Benjamin, they should be able to win the ball in the air.

This would be a good example as to why we should have our own reserves team. It's ridiculous that there is a disconnection between the game styles of the seniors and reserves.

It's yet another reason why Pagan would have been astounded at Stick's insistence that Mitchell continue with the Bullants. I'm sure that Pagan would have wanted someone who would groom the players to play as required in the seniors.

If that's the case Ryan, then we really should not be pushing for the young guys to be promoted because it would be like lambs to the slaughter.

Whilst JK requires development, he cannot be expected to go from one style of footy to another and for some people to bag the bejesus out of him, when he seems lost on the ground playing for the seniors.

In the case of Bower and I know this will sound very strange, but maybe the BM style does not suit whereas DP style does - he won't drop his head as much because the game is being played at such a fast pace.

He may be bored with the BM version.

Having said all that - we are seriously flowered if we are doing this to our players - flowering them in the head with these VERY diverse styles of play and while I am an advocate for learning all trades of the caper - this is asking too much of them.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

We need our own reserves side asap. Hopefully as soon as next year as it would not helping our young players playing in a affliated side. And rotating between the Senior Bullants side and their reserves side.

But one thing is for sure I am not a PAGAN SUPPORTER but please I hope that nobody is suggesting that Mitchell is a better coach than Pagan.

As that is absurd!!!!

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#sayerscouldbetheman!!

There are teams in the AFL that employ 3-4 different styles of game plan duing the one game depending on the situation of the game.

I am sure our players could adapt from one playing style to another just as quickly as the other teams do

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Indie, then DP should tell Sticks to have a word in BM's ear along the lines of........... 'Not sure if you have been catching how the seniors are playing since I banished you to Siberia BUT do you think you could get your team to play a bit like my team and that way we don't totally flower the talent that we have. Have a think about it and get back to Sticks, who will get back to me'.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

SB but we are not playing different styles in one game, we are teaching the players two different styles at two different levels of the game.

If DP was advocating both types of play, then great, but he isn't and BM needs to be pulled into line because you cannot tell me that a fast flowing, contested style of game won't win you a game of footy in the VFL.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

You think Mitchell doesn't know Pagan's game plan after being an assistant under him for 4 years? As has been said many times, his game plan isn't that hard to understand (as Buckley also noted of the WCE game plan under Worsfold). I'd say Mitchell knows exactly what Pagan wants to see in the Ants, but for his own reasons he's taken another path.

You're right though about Sticks. He should be having a word in Mitchell's ear. If only out of self-interest. His insistence that Mitchell and Pagan have separate roles is undermined by this sort of nonsense, and it makes him look like a fool.

No you want your players to be able to play as many different game plans as possible.

Mitchell is teaching what most in the AFL are doing
Pagan is employing a game that attracts supporters sponsors and adds excitment to a team that has been down for a while. He knows he can win more games by pushing numbers back and playing the look for the best option football but he has said himself that he believes in the long run his plan stands up better - it just seems a very long run.

when we are competitive again we will need both plans and more

I dont see anything wrong with whats happening at the moment

Pagan was using Mitchell style for a period last year dont forget.
Different circumstances require different tactics

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I havent seen any bullants games, so I can't comment on BMs coaching style. However I am very happy to see that DP has the boys playing attacking footy this season and has not resorted to mega flooding.

I honestly think it's frogshit. I understand that they SHOULD be playing similar game styles and discussing issues relating to structure etc, but our listed players train with DP and practice Carlton plays - not Bullants.

On Saturday afternoons they go over to Preston and play that BS game of Bazzy Bazz's and Monday go back to PP to learn how real footy is played.

Yes, we should stop them from being exposed to that virus at every opportunity, but hopefully they're smart enough to realise Bazza will be coaching the Montmorency U13 next year.

The problem with that, SB, is that chip footy can be very intoxicating and reassuring for young players. You are able to eliminate risks and your effective kick ratio flatters you. This is a style they know well from TAC level where there are always loose players to go to.

The direct style favoured by the Blues and the Kangaroos involves risks. As soon as you get the ball, you have to look for longer options and take them even if they're 60/40 in preference to the 100/0 uncontested option to your side. The risk is that the kick will result in a turnover, particularly if the kick is slightly off and gives the opposition the advantage. That result will leave them feeling horrible.

When the youngsters go up to the AFL, the pace of the game hits them in the face. Even elite footballers-rather-than-athletes like Gibbs notice it, so you can imagine how less talented players (or athletes-rather-than-footballers) react to the pressure. They face opponents who have bigger bodies and more experience. Their opponents stick with them unlike at VFL level, and they are involved much more in contests. They usually have only a split second to make their decisions - much less time than they have in the VFL. Even if they do have time to make a decision, they will think they don't because of the pressure they feel.

So young players will naturally look for the safe option of a player to their side rather than look upfield.

This unhinges our game plan because while they do this, the opposition floods back. By the time they get the ball to a teammate, the options ahead have dried up.

The only way to ensure that young players take the risky option is to pull them up if they go for the safe option. They have to retrain their way of selecting options.

If we had headset radios like in the NFL, the coach could stop this by yelling at the youngster that he has to kick it long and not seek the reassurance of a sideways chip. But we don't have this option. The only way to ensure that the players play as intended is to reinforce the message at training and before the game and at intervals during the game. Or by dragging the player during the game.

But the message is diluted if the youngster goes to the VFL and is encouraged to do exactly what the Carlton Coach doesn't want.

You have to practice strategies until they become natural. That way, they don't revert to safety-first thinking when they're under pressure.

The same problem rears its head in other sports too. If a young player has a weak serve, he'll have to spend a lot of time learning a new service motion, but there's always a temptation to resort to the "waiter's serve" when he has a 2nd serve on an important point. And a player who has a stable slice backhand has to be trained relentlessly to play a topspin backhand instead. Again, under pressure the player will fall back on the slice. The only way for a coach to overcome that tendency is to tell his player that he isn't allowed to take the soft option at all. Only when the player becomes confident with the new style will the coach give him the option of mixing it up with the slice backhand. Only then will the coach trust that he'll make a good shot selection rather than retreating into his safety zone.

Our players might well be given greater options as they become more experienced, but at the moment they have to become proficient in Plan A.

We really need to sort this DP/BM situation out

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Come on Indie you are smarter than that . DP knows how to win football games and he also knows his game plan isn't going to win him to many the way the game is being played now . DP is presenting a youngish football side to the public that play an half attractive style of play to get people through the gate . Laidley is doing the same over at North but their winning the odd game .

Mitchell is teaching his side how to win
Pagan is trying to attract supporters and money he has done it all his life he know no other way - thats how he can keep his job after winning two spoons in a row

All the head lines this week is that we are nearly there we can feel a win coming soon we are being competitive . We are closer to our next flogging than our next week win

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

You skated over the "odd game" that the Kangaroos have won this year SB. No surprise there, as they're sitting 6th on the ladder with 6 wins after finishing 14th last year with only 7 wins, despite losing their best forward in Thompson. The big changes they've implemented are the adoption of direct footy instead of their heavy possession game, and a relentless fitness program over the summer.

The game plan can work, as it has done for the Kangaroos. You're entitled to your preference for possession footy. But I'm happy to see us using direct footy.

I agree that it leads to more attractive footy, and that it teaches the young players more than chip footy. But those are merely added bonuses to a style that should be well suited to finals footy.

Whilst not a Pagan fan, I agree. I would much prefer the young players learn to play an attacking, flowing game of footy as part of their development. And for what it's worth, I actually think that that style is coming back into the competition, and that we are moving away from the chip, possession game again, as a natural evolution.

My issue with Pagan is his insistence on giving the kids coming into the side defensive roles. Sure, some need them, and some are going to become defensive players, but I think guys like Russell and Gibbs need to be let loose every now and then, and allowed to play.

Also, Pagan's ability to tactically respond to the other team leaves much to be desired.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Gee Indie, you must have nearly tripped over your keyboard responding to this thread!

You talk about playing "finals footy". What style of game won the past couple of finals?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

[quote]“We make a lot of poor decisions and it’s about learning and it’s about growing. I’ll tell you what it’s not about; commitment and trying as hard as you can or trying to do the right things because they’re certainly doing all those things.â€

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Hey BV - this is a fantastic thread - genius who came up with it!

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.