TalkingCarlton
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Draft History: Where we went wrong
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16086		 Page 1 of 10
Author:  Teen Spirit [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Draft History: Where we went wrong
was Ben Nelson a first round pick for us once upon a time?...(purely out of interest)

i know that Murray Vance was pick 6 in 1998 and Josh Carr was pick 7 that year, Jude Bolton at pick 8, Lenny Hayes at pick 11, Nick Davis at pick 19 and not to mention Fevola at 38 (we did something right) and even later in the draft were names like Heath Scotland and Andrew Embley.

1999 our first pick was pick 60, basically denying us any shot at a young star (or did it?) we used this pick to draft Richard Kelly (sorry never heard of him) and picks after that point in the draft were names such as Cameron Bruce, Ben Johnson, Ryan Hargrave, Robert Shirley, Ryan Houlihan, and Troy Makepeace

Here's the stinger...Luke Livingston at pick 4 in the year 2000 (i always liked him and wanted him to do well but it just didnt work out, lets face it)
top 10 names in that draft were Jordon McMahon, Andrew McDougall, Kayne Pettifer, Daniel Motlop and Laurence Angwin (ok so it wasnt a star studded top 10)...we took Trent Sporn with pick 11, but between that pick and pick 15 which got us Simon Wiggins, guys like Shaun Burgoyne, Daniel Harris, and Ashley McGrath were drafted.

after Simon Wiggins, guys picked were Daniel Kerr (18), Kane Cornes (20), Drew Petrie (23), Mark Coughlan (25), and Jamie Charman (29) before our next pick who was Blake Campbell at 31...after this we missed out on Ryan Lonie, Adam McPhee, Daniel Pratt, Josh Hunt, Domenic Cassissi, Chris Newman, Daniel Cross, and Graham Johncock (OUCH!)

2002 was when we got the first spoon, and with the lack of opportunity in that years draft we did well to get Simpson, Fisher and Norman out of the picks we had available. But the stats above, as generalised as they may be are pretty scary at a handful of the names we could have had...


Nic
Author:  TruBlueBrad [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wait a minute...let me get this right...are you saying Carlton have a poor drafting record?

Amazing!

Just like tanking, this is something that has never been discussed before. No one has ever thought to go back and check on our drafting history and found its been pretty poor.










For the record, Ben Nelson came over with Andrew Baukwill (he who never played in the Navy Blue) in a trade for Brent Heaver.
Author:  Teen Spirit [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Wait a minute...let me get this right...are you saying Carlton have a poor drafting record?

Amazing!

Just like tanking, this is something that has never been discussed before. No one has ever thought to go back and check on our drafting history and found its been pretty poor.






For the record, Ben Nelson came over with Andrew Baukwill (he who never played in the Navy Blue) in a trade for Brent Heaver.



thanks for the info on Ben Nelson...but not everyone has seen 50posts on our draft history. I only found out the total details today so i posted...i could argue i've seen 50posts asking for Lance to be dropped and for Pagan to be fired but i still create discussion from it.


Nic
Author:  carltonac [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
We gained Ben Nelson and Andrew Balkwill from Port Adelaide, in exchange for Brent Heaver when Port Adelaide got their licence to join the A.F.L. Nelson and Balkwill were compensatory players chosen for the lose of Heaver. Unfortunately our compensatory selections turned out to be duds, unlike some other compensatory selections that other clubs got for losing players to new A.F.L teams.

Some examples are:

* Essendon* gained Matthew Lloyd as Compensatory selection for Todd Ridley going to Fremantle.

* Essendon* gained Chris Heffernan and Jason Johnson as compensatory selections for Scott Cummings going to Port Adelaide.

* Essendon* gained Scott Lucas for Tony Delaney going to Fremantle.

* WCE gained David Wirrpanda as compensatory selection for Tony Godden going to Fremantle.

* Geelong gained Steven King as compensatory selection for Stephen O'Reilly going to Fremantle.

So with Carlton unable to choose compensatory selections as good as the other teams have, plus our poor judgement on other selections that we made early in the draft e.g Livingston for Hamill etc etc, plus our salary cap breaches, that is why we are where we are today.
Author:  Jarusa [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Teen Spirit wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Wait a minute...let me get this right...are you saying Carlton have a poor drafting record?

Amazing!

Just like tanking, this is something that has never been discussed before. No one has ever thought to go back and check on our drafting history and found its been pretty poor.






For the record, Ben Nelson came over with Andrew Baukwill (he who never played in the Navy Blue) in a trade for Brent Heaver.



thanks for the info on Ben Nelson...but not everyone has seen 50posts on our draft history. I only found out the total details today so i posted...i could argue i've seen 50posts asking for Lance to be dropped and for Pagan to be fired but i still create discussion from it.


Nic


Please forgive those of us who have been reading these forums for a few years and seen this exact topic discussed many times before. I remember what it was like when first discussing it.

Brad is an old crusty moderator so you have to forgive him this trespass. :P

Yes, our draft history is bad because we were one of the last clubs to actually embrace and/or use the draft. You can thank Elliot and Parkin for that legacy.
Author:  TruBlueBrad [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
They were completely different situations.

You said it yourself, those were compensatory selections...ours were players on the Port Adelaide list that we traded for.
Author:  SparkyBlue [ Wed May 09, 2007 11:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
When it comes to draft picks of the last decade or so, there's one name that stands out to me - O'Sullivan. A few diamonds in the rough in there, but when it came to early draft pick choices boy could he fudge up.

His best early draft pick was Kris Massie, and he has played his best footy at Adelaide.

:roll: :P
Author:  chyna [ Thu May 10, 2007 12:01 am ]
Post subject: 
For any reference to the sad, sorry tale of woe that has been Carlton's Drafting History, check out this website.

www.thedrafter.net

The guy who has done this has really done his research but obviously has wayyyy too much time on his hands.

It makes sickening reading actually.
Author:  Rambo Stallone [ Thu May 10, 2007 1:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Teen Spirit wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Wait a minute...let me get this right...are you saying Carlton have a poor drafting record?

Amazing!

Just like tanking, this is something that has never been discussed before. No one has ever thought to go back and check on our drafting history and found its been pretty poor.






For the record, Ben Nelson came over with Andrew Baukwill (he who never played in the Navy Blue) in a trade for Brent Heaver.



thanks for the info on Ben Nelson...but not everyone has seen 50posts on our draft history. I only found out the total details today so i posted...i could argue i've seen 50posts asking for Lance to be dropped and for Pagan to be fired but i still create discussion from it.


Nic
nah that's cool some people forget there been like1000 post topics on things not everyone going to go back a year to read something like this done,some people here have posted like 20 000 times that's crazy,i have over 1000 posts and i think that's bad enough,lol
Author:  kkk [ Thu May 10, 2007 3:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Chyna,

I can't access that site (drafter).

Any reason/ideas?
Author:  Teddy [ Thu May 10, 2007 5:30 am ]
Post subject: 
kkk wrote:
Chyna,

I can't access that site (drafter).

Any reason/ideas?


Try ...

http://www.thedrafter.net/
Author:  Deano Supremo [ Thu May 10, 2007 7:35 am ]
Post subject: 
I love revisionist recruitment!
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Thu May 10, 2007 9:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Pass
Author:  The Tyrant [ Thu May 10, 2007 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Nelson and Balkwill weren't Port listed players.... but they were available to Port because they were in that zone. There would have been nothing stopping us asking for Peter Burgoyne or Warren Tredrea for Heaver (except Port not doing the deal!)

I wonder why we pushed hard for 2 average players that Port probably weren't interested in adding, when we might have packaged Heaver up with an out of contract player and had access to an early pick and/or one good player in the Port zone, like a Peter Burgoyne (example).

West Coast swapped Shane Bond, Brayden Lyle and Ian Downsborough (uncontracted) for pick 1 plus a couple of other picks.

We swap Brent Heaver for Nelson and Balkwill.... how hard would it have been to package up someone else who was half-good (like a Brad Pearce or someone like that) for some really good picks...
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Thu May 10, 2007 9:38 am ]
Post subject: 
You think our drafting record is terrible what about Hawthorn they choose Roughead before Franklin

How [REDACTED] must they be :lol:
Author:  Sergeant.Blue [ Thu May 10, 2007 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
SparkyBlue wrote:
When it comes to draft picks of the last decade or so, there's one name that stands out to me - O'Sullivan. A few diamonds in the rough in there, but when it came to early draft pick choices boy could he fudge up.

His best early draft pick was Kris Massie, and he has played his best footy at Adelaide.

:roll: :P


Could not agree more.
Author:  The Tyrant [ Thu May 10, 2007 11:15 am ]
Post subject: 
now this old chestnut.....

O'Sullivan's selections with early picks were horribly compromised by other forces at the club trying to push an agenda..... specifically selecting player-types over best available....

In the late 90s the club were obsessed with filling the side with 18 Koutas.... they learned the hard way that Koutas are a 1 in a generation and that 188cm teens don't often grow 4-5cms when you need them to.

Those early picks smack of an O'Sullivan with his hands tied.

Certainly his late-pick history is beyond reproach and approaching best-practice across the league. Simpson, Fisher, Houlihan, Fevola.. Bentick, Carrazzo, Mark Porter, Judas.... all regulars and all probable 200 game players (barring injury or trades)

I think its fair to say the disease that nearly caused the death of the club from 2002-now was well and truly eating away at the carcass in the late 90s.... and the draft record is only one symptom of it, and its incredibly misguided to blame it all on Shane O
Author:  imitation_of_life [ Thu May 10, 2007 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
The Tyrant wrote:
now this old chestnut.....
In the late 90s the club were obsessed with filling the side with 18 Koutas....


99% of our draft picks are built like young koutas now lol

188cm minimum and can run like the wind
Author:  BrizzyBlue [ Thu May 10, 2007 11:49 am ]
Post subject: 
The Tyrant wrote:
now this old chestnut.....

O'Sullivan's selections with early picks were horribly compromised by other forces at the club trying to push an agenda..... specifically selecting player-types over best available....

In the late 90s the club were obsessed with filling the side with 18 Koutas.... they learned the hard way that Koutas are a 1 in a generation and that 188cm teens don't often grow 4-5cms when you need them to.

Those early picks smack of an O'Sullivan with his hands tied.

Certainly his late-pick history is beyond reproach and approaching best-practice across the league. Simpson, Fisher, Houlihan, Fevola.. Bentick, Carrazzo, Mark Porter, Judas.... all regulars and all probable 200 game players (barring injury or trades)

I think its fair to say the disease that nearly caused the death of the club from 2002-now was well and truly eating away at the carcass in the late 90s.... and the draft record is only one symptom of it, and its incredibly misguided to blame it all on Shane O


Spot on Ty. I have personally known SOS (as we called him up here) since he was a 20 something. When he first got the nod at Carlton, he was really learning on the job, but made up for it with hours of research. Remember he left to go to Footscray and the Bears where he really shone because neither had much in the way of infrastructure, support or were cashed up. He worked out of a tin shed (old shipping container) at Carrara whilst with the Bears. People should look back at the players he recruited who formed the basis of their dominant era. It wasn't long before Carlton recognized that Shane had the eye and enticed him back.

Unfortunately his hands were wired together, because he would present a list of players in order of quality who should be available at certain picks and...

1. The picks would be traded for gumbies, 2. His advice on quality was ignored in favour of picking for supposed type or 3. Passing on the pick altogether! :shock:

There is no secret who the driving forces were behind these stuffups. JE said on a number of occasions "We don't rebuild at Carlton". Parko preferred ready mades and Brits just followed the example set. To blame Shane O is a travesty of justice and those who know what really happened are satisfied that he did the very best under difficult circumstances! :)
Author:  The Tyrant [ Thu May 10, 2007 11:59 am ]
Post subject: 
well, lets consider 2002

who would swap Kade Simpson and Brad Fisher to St.Kilda for Goddard and Leigh Fisher?
Page 1 of 10 All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/