TalkingCarlton
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Sunday Perspective
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16031		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mikkey [ Sun May 06, 2007 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Sunday Perspective
Reading these online forums has been a somewhat frustrating at late….. very much like watching Carlton play Friday.

We are all armchair experts here and it saddens me that so many people feel obliged to play alpha dogs and take potshots at each other at every opportunity. It is also amusing how the emotions are in full yoyo mode. We win some games and we will make the finals, we loose some and the world comes to an end and people turn on each other and especially the players.

Having a quiet Sunday and read quite a few posts today. Here are some of my perspectives of what is going on:

The players: It is amusing how we turn on and off on players. One week Carrazzo is a gem taken with a late pick and the next he is not up to AFL level. Same goes for players like Bentick, Carlos etc.

I find it ridiculous how people get stuck into players like JK and Gibbs. Gibbs turned 18 a few weeks ago…enough said. JK is in IMHO a talent in the Buddy Franklin league. May I remind people that Buddy was drafted in 2004 and did not do much for 2 seasons and actually spent quite some time in the VFL. Big guys take time. The argument should be more about how to develop him best i.e. should he play more games in the VFL? But then again, we do not bat very deep.

People seem also to forget that a key factor for our recent demise has to be found in the midfield. Developing sides with lots of kids like Bulldogs and Hawthorn have still some experienced hard bodies in the middle. We have been weak in this area anyway, and recent injuries have drained our midfield – especially in the hardness area - and opposing teams know this and take advantage of it.

The Coaches: I was probably on the Pagan bandwagon longer then many. I am not any longer but not in the way all evil in the world is blamed on DP by so many. I find it interesting how people slam DP for the forward set-up but don’t mention Ratten who is responsible for the forward line. Interesting how any move by DP will be slammed. Putting Fev into the middle Friday for a short time has been criticized – but funny how he woke up and kicked goals after that.

DP’s game plan gets slammed all the time. But how much is game plan and how much is it the players or better the player groups balance and ability to implement it? Have a look at Hawthorn who have been slammed for their game plan under Clarkson… Hawthorn has often played ugly and looked inept (like us). But suddenly they are 4 and 2 and everything is sweet – funny enough exactly at the same time as a key player like Buddy (who might become the new Carey of the AFL) finally seems to be fully developed.

Winning or loosing AFL games is not “justâ€
Author:  SA Blue [ Sun May 06, 2007 2:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Perspective can be a difficult thing to have when you are losing!

It is frustrating when people jump on and off players, and the team depending on the result. What is frustrating for me, is people expecting change and improvement to be rapid, and people forget it has / will take us years to rebuild our team. We have virtually turned over our entire list in the past 6 years, and we have had only really been in the draft (access to top talent) for the past 2-3 years. Realistically it will be a few more years before we are a consistent finals side. This however, won't stop people expecting a win every week and slagging everyone off if we don't win.

On Pagan, I have been a supporter, and don't want to a mid season sacking as I have doubts over the effectiveness, but I would expect a full review by the new administration and if they believe he can't take us forward, then action should be taken.
Author:  lifelongblue [ Sun May 06, 2007 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why have we lost the ferocious attack on the ball that we had in the nab cup ?? it seems that we can't hack the presure of the season proper why? we looked alot better in the nab cup
Author:  Chatreuse [ Sun May 06, 2007 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
You are correct lifelongblue. The hardness is what is missing. Look at that third quarter against the Saints....we went in hard and we got the score within 4 points. Where was it for the rest of the game. The same with the win over Essendon*. The hardness was missing in the first half but second half it was there. Again with Brisbane for 3 quarters it was there but missing in the last quarter. I understand we have a young side and we will be losing more than winning, but if we can make go in hard for the ball more consistently and for 4 quarters we can match it with most teams in the AFL and possibly win games, but it can also stop us from being thrashed. That is what is missing more than anything.
Author:  Fabulous [ Sun May 06, 2007 8:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
lifelongblue wrote:
Why have we lost the ferocious attack on the ball that we had in the nab cup ?? it seems that we can't hack the presure of the season proper why? we looked alot better in the nab cup


Great Post Mikkey

We looked better in the NAB cup because 3 quarters of the teams didn’t take the Cup seriously...

While we treated those games like finals football, the "real contenders" treated it as a practice match!

We were more passionate and harder at the football and had belief back then…
Author:  SurreyBlue [ Mon May 07, 2007 11:06 am ]
Post subject: 
lifelongblue wrote:
Why have we lost the ferocious attack on the ball that we had in the nab cup ??


Couldn't agree more. We are once again going through the motions and not really competing or believing in ourselves. Has been happening for years and there is only 1 bloke who can change this, yep the COACH. Look at Collingwood & Essendon* (just to name 2) and see the difference in application.
Author:  bluebeard [ Mon May 07, 2007 12:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good things take time.

We will get better in time. The Baby blues will improve gradually.

The Stevens + Kouta injuries really hurt us.

It shows us that we need a few strong bodies in the middle and at the moment we dont have any.
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Mon May 07, 2007 12:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
lifelongblue wrote:
Why have we lost the ferocious attack on the ball that we had in the nab cup ?? it seems that we can't hack the presure of the season proper why? we looked alot better in the nab cup


The NAB cup is a practice game and the sooner we realise this the better.

NAB cup form means nothing
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Mon May 07, 2007 12:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
bluebeard wrote:
Good things take time.

We will get better in time. The Baby blues will improve gradually.

The Stevens + Kouta injuries really hurt us.

It shows us that we need a few strong bodies in the middle and at the moment we dont have any.


Kouta's injury shouldnt be hurting us because he should not be a factor anymore like Hird isnt a factor, Buckely isnt a factor.
Andrew Walker should be in the middle taking Koutas spot and Kouta giving him tips in the dressing room like Nathan Buckley is doing for the Pies.

Agree that Stevens however has been a huge loss and has made Murphys life on the field miserable as a byproduct......the baby Blues will improve especially if they can get more than one game plan happening...
Author:  bluebeard [ Mon May 07, 2007 12:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
bluebeard wrote:
Good things take time.

We will get better in time. The Baby blues will improve gradually.

The Stevens + Kouta injuries really hurt us.

It shows us that we need a few strong bodies in the middle and at the moment we dont have any.


Kouta's injury shouldnt be hurting us because he should not be a factor anymore like Hird isnt a factor, Buckely isnt a factor.
Andrew Walker should be in the middle taking Koutas spot and Kouta giving him tips in the dressing room like Nathan Buckley is doing for the Pies.

Agree that Stevens however has been a huge loss and has made Murphys life on the field miserable as a byproduct......the baby Blues will improve especially if they can get more than one game plan happening...



Dead right Elwood.

Stevens loss has really showed up how inept Pagan is as well.

As for Kouta. what Kouta would do is precisely what Stevens was doing to the opposition gameplan.

Opposition coaches would have to put their 3rd midfielder or 3rd defender on Kouta, freeing up JK and/or Fisher.

Instead, the younger forwards are getting better man on man opponents.

What shits me is that Pagan cant seem to adapt to match ups during the game.

The other night...Fev had no room to move in the 50m arc.

It took until halftime for Pagan to make the right moves to give Fev enough space.

He should have put emphasis on the midfield/HF lines to carry the ball and only use FEv if he was free.

Lappin, Betts and co should have played further up the field and ran into the 50m arc to kick the goals themselves.

Nearly every forward movement in the first half was repelled because Fev had either 3 people on him or he was totally out of position.

Pagan is a one trick pony...and the trick is bloody obvious!
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Mon May 07, 2007 1:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
bluebeard wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
bluebeard wrote:
Good things take time.

We will get better in time. The Baby blues will improve gradually.

The Stevens + Kouta injuries really hurt us.

It shows us that we need a few strong bodies in the middle and at the moment we dont have any.


Kouta's injury shouldnt be hurting us because he should not be a factor anymore like Hird isnt a factor, Buckely isnt a factor.
Andrew Walker should be in the middle taking Koutas spot and Kouta giving him tips in the dressing room like Nathan Buckley is doing for the Pies.

Agree that Stevens however has been a huge loss and has made Murphys life on the field miserable as a byproduct......the baby Blues will improve especially if they can get more than one game plan happening...



Dead right Elwood.

Stevens loss has really showed up how inept Pagan is as well.

As for Kouta. what Kouta would do is precisely what Stevens was doing to the opposition gameplan.

Opposition coaches would have to put their 3rd midfielder or 3rd defender on Kouta, freeing up JK and/or Fisher.

Instead, the younger forwards are getting better man on man opponents.

What shits me is that Pagan cant seem to adapt to match ups during the game.

The other night...Fev had no room to move in the 50m arc.

It took until halftime for Pagan to make the right moves to give Fev enough space.

He should have put emphasis on the midfield/HF lines to carry the ball and only use FEv if he was free.

Lappin, Betts and co should have played further up the field and ran into the 50m arc to kick the goals themselves.

Nearly every forward movement in the first half was repelled because Fev had either 3 people on him or he was totally out of position.

Pagan is a one trick pony...and the trick is bloody obvious!


His one trick has slowed,halted or destroyed Josh Kennedy......its hard to get a stat when no one kicks the ball to you.
Are the players not following instructions or are Pagan and Ratten not getting the message across....like you I am very frustrated seeing the same thing week after week
Author:  bluebeard [ Mon May 07, 2007 1:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
bluebeard wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
bluebeard wrote:
Good things take time.

We will get better in time. The Baby blues will improve gradually.

The Stevens + Kouta injuries really hurt us.

It shows us that we need a few strong bodies in the middle and at the moment we dont have any.


Kouta's injury shouldnt be hurting us because he should not be a factor anymore like Hird isnt a factor, Buckely isnt a factor.
Andrew Walker should be in the middle taking Koutas spot and Kouta giving him tips in the dressing room like Nathan Buckley is doing for the Pies.

Agree that Stevens however has been a huge loss and has made Murphys life on the field miserable as a byproduct......the baby Blues will improve especially if they can get more than one game plan happening...



Dead right Elwood.

Stevens loss has really showed up how inept Pagan is as well.

As for Kouta. what Kouta would do is precisely what Stevens was doing to the opposition gameplan.

Opposition coaches would have to put their 3rd midfielder or 3rd defender on Kouta, freeing up JK and/or Fisher.

Instead, the younger forwards are getting better man on man opponents.

What shits me is that Pagan cant seem to adapt to match ups during the game.

The other night...Fev had no room to move in the 50m arc.

It took until halftime for Pagan to make the right moves to give Fev enough space.

He should have put emphasis on the midfield/HF lines to carry the ball and only use FEv if he was free.

Lappin, Betts and co should have played further up the field and ran into the 50m arc to kick the goals themselves.

Nearly every forward movement in the first half was repelled because Fev had either 3 people on him or he was totally out of position.

Pagan is a one trick pony...and the trick is bloody obvious!


His one trick has slowed,halted or destroyed Josh Kennedy......its hard to get a stat when no one kicks the ball to you.
Are the players not following instructions or are Pagan and Ratten not getting the message across....like you I am very frustrated seeing the same thing week after week


Pratt/Icke/Swann will not put up with it.

Pagan's days are numbered...he is killing our brand!

How can Swann sell the club if Pagan undermines our progress?

he can't!

I hate to say it but I agree with Synbad.

We have nearly amputated the dysfunctional jokes.

Only 2 to go...Pagan and Mitchell

Keep on truckin Elwood.

2008 will be very interesting.
Author:  BIBI01 [ Mon May 07, 2007 2:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
what gets me is how can we continaually only blame 1 componet of the club for all our problems.

blaming 1 person does not fix our problems.
Author:  George Harris [ Mon May 07, 2007 2:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
BIBI01 wrote:
what gets me is how can we continaually only blame 1 componet of the club for all our problems.

blaming 1 person does not fix our problems.



No, but sacking him will.
Author:  Warby [ Mon May 07, 2007 3:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Interesting little par in the Sunday Sun that reported that......

"There were raised eyebrows when Denis Pagan attended the Races at Warrnambool during the week to see one of his horses run.....apparently, Richard Pratt was reported to be ropeable when told the news"....
Author:  ryan2000 [ Mon May 07, 2007 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Warby wrote:
Interesting little par in the Sunday Sun that reported that......

"There were raised eyebrows when Denis Pagan attended the Races at Warrnambool during the week to see one of his horses run.....apparently, Richard Pratt was reported to be ropeable when told the news"....


So was i............................................. :roll:

I posted this elsewhere but we had a 'light' trainning session on both tuesday & thursday with swimming on wednesday! Apparently those three days are the biggest at the Warrnambool meet. One of my mates called me to say he saw Dennis down there on the Wednesday!

After the fall-out in the last quater, a 'light' training session is as soft as butter!

Wonder how many other teams out there would only have a 'light' session at training after fading out in their last game?
Author:  Clayman [ Mon May 07, 2007 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sydney Blue wrote:
lifelongblue wrote:
Why have we lost the ferocious attack on the ball that we had in the nab cup ?? it seems that we can't hack the presure of the season proper why? we looked alot better in the nab cup


The NAB cup is a practice game and the sooner we realise this the better.

NAB cup form means nothing


NAB Cup = Greater Than 32,000 members
Author:  Goltzenberg [ Mon May 07, 2007 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
ryan2000 wrote:
Warby wrote:
Interesting little par in the Sunday Sun that reported that......

"There were raised eyebrows when Denis Pagan attended the Races at Warrnambool during the week to see one of his horses run.....apparently, Richard Pratt was reported to be ropeable when told the news"....


So was i............................................. :roll:

I posted this elsewhere but we had a 'light' trainning session on both tuesday & thursday with swimming on wednesday! Apparently those three days are the biggest at the Warrnambool meet. One of my mates called me to say he saw Dennis down there on the Wednesday!

After the fall-out in the last quater, a 'light' training session is as soft as butter!

Wonder how many other teams out there would only have a 'light' session at training after fading out in their last game?


Who cares if Pagan was at the races on Wednesday serioiusly. Training was on tuesday and thursday. He had all week to scout St Kilda. Even the coach needs some time off to free his mind of the stress of football. What better way then having a punt :P

Surprised that isnt a top story on the herald sun headline "AFL Coach Gambling" lol

I just find it amazing that pagan doesnt open up the forward line like Gibbs/Johnson did to us last week. Even if they drop someone back you can man that person up.
Author:  Indie [ Mon May 07, 2007 4:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
ryan2000 wrote:
After the fall-out in the last quater, a 'light' training session is as soft as butter!

Wonder how many other teams out there would only have a 'light' session at training after fading out in their last game?

No AFL club would have done the same as us ... back in the 70s and 80s.

These days, the emphasis isn't on every player running laps carrying bricks. Individual programs are the modern way. When the conditioning man says that it's best for the team to have light training sessions to avoid fatigue brought about by having to play 2 games in the 12 days after playing WCE in torrential rain at Subi, modern coaches accept that advice.

That's what Pagan said happened.

Of course, if he went out of his way to punish them for a 2 goal loss and flogged them mercilessly to make a point, the outcry would have been that this wasn't the modern way and he was showing how out of touch he was. The obvious point would be made that hard training sessions won't improve a fitness base that is at its peak come the start of the season.

A few people have to make a decision about whether they want Pagan to delegate or not. It seems that most people make that decision in retrospect after they know whether we win or lose. It seems that the idea of leaving the training to the assistants so the boys will be freshened by hearing other coaches' voices isn't now considered to be worthwhile.
Author:  hadz [ Mon May 07, 2007 5:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess Indie
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/