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To tank or not to tank???
YES - lets get picks 1 and 2 this year and be a force for the next 10 seasons 42%  42%  [ 77 ]
NO - we will be right with what we've got 58%  58%  [ 106 ]
Total votes : 183
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:13 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Goltzenberg wrote:
Surprised this thread is still going :)

Why Tank? Carlton havent done any good in the last 13 years with 1st round draft picks. Only Murphy and Gibbs.

Losers attitude


Yep

Trying to loose is ridiculous.

Win as many games as possible me thinks.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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interesting think tank, this

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Laurie Kerr
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Synbad wrote:
nytdog wrote:
According to this definition we are already tanking because we are playing the youngest most inexperienced team in the competition. So to tank further would be to drop Lappin, Whitnall and maybe even Kouta (when he returns) Fev and Scotland. That would be extreme and despicable. What a shit message to send to the players about the sort of club we are. When you get to 27 and we can't make the finals, expect to be dropped no matter if you're one of our better players.

History shows that team's develop better and quicker with a mix of youth and experience/seasoned bodies. Look at the Baby Bombers of 1993. We are doing fine with the team we have right now. All we need to do is continue to provide opportunities to our younger and middle tier players that deserve a senior spot by showing form in the Ants.

Harts needs a chance asap. Bower has time but deserves a spot as soon as his defensive side comes along. Edwards soon too I hope. Some with Blackers.



Look... ill come to you when i need info about stuff you know.......

Whats Larry Byrd doing these days???....


Larry Bird played for the Celtics, Boston Celtics that is.

Fair dinkum, there are some small minds on this site. The stats on Pg 6 are very relevant, and just maybe the eagles and swans got lucky.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:33 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Synbad wrote:
popeye wrote:
Synbad wrote:
nytdog wrote:
According to this definition we are already tanking because we are playing the youngest most inexperienced team in the competition. So to tank further would be to drop Lappin, Whitnall and maybe even Kouta (when he returns) Fev and Scotland. That would be extreme and despicable. What a shit message to send to the players about the sort of club we are. When you get to 27 and we can't make the finals, expect to be dropped no matter if you're one of our better players.

History shows that team's develop better and quicker with a mix of youth and experience/seasoned bodies. Look at the Baby Bombers of 1993. We are doing fine with the team we have right now. All we need to do is continue to provide opportunities to our younger and middle tier players that deserve a senior spot by showing form in the Ants.

Harts needs a chance asap. Bower has time but deserves a spot as soon as his defensive side comes along. Edwards soon too I hope. Some with Blackers.



Look... ill come to you when i need info about stuff you know.......

Whats Larry Byrd doing these days???....


Larry Bird played for the Celtics, Boston Celtics that is.

Fair dinkum, there are some small minds on this site. The stats on Pg 6 are very relevant, and just maybe the eagles and swans got lucky.



Yes but i wanted to know what hes doing these days...

Do you know?


I heard an AWFULL rumour the other week that he had died, which i then went and told all my freinds (we were all big fans of his & Magic & Charles).

Needless to say i got a few phone calls from mates calling me an idiot when they found out it was bullcrap!

I was told he's doing radio now.

HE was good....................that was back in the day that Basketball was great, it's just lost something since Jordan retired! But i miss those days!

Anyway, just thought i'd mention that.

Oh - an PM me if you need any help with the 'Porn' situation. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:03 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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here it is.....

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:17 am 
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Horrie Clover
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Gents,

We are still miles off. We lost by 42 points to a depleted St Kilda outfit.

I can see us winning 4 more games this season...the worst thing our club could do.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:21 am 
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Bruce Doull
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GAVROMAN wrote:
Gents,

We are still miles off. We lost by 42 points to a depleted St Kilda outfit.

I can see us winning 4 more games this season...the worst thing our club could do.
We wont win 4 more.. maybe 3 if were lucky.
People think we can become a good side overnight... they forget our bodies are young and our coach is shit!....

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:39 am 
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Ken Hunter
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I hate to say this, but I'm kind of starting to hope that we only win another 2...(The last 2 would be good.)


I cant stand nights like last night, it has been 5 years in the wilderness and it will be another couple...


We still need better cattle.

I'm reasonably certain we will have a new coach next year, so.....

TANK ON!











See you all in 4 months,

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:41 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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We won't have to tank while Pagan is still the Coach. It will happen naturally :oops:

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:24 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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chubbyruss wrote:
We won't have to tank while Pagan is still the Coach. It will happen naturally :oops:
The problem with the organic tank under Pagan is.......
... he would sign up Kouta for another year... and drop a kid to rush him right back..
.. we kept Lance instead of trading him the way Hawthorn traded their over the hill players...
... shithouse understanding of the modern game... another wasted year of development for the kids...

You get the pick and develop by retiring Kouta... trading Lance... and developing the kids properly....

Imagine in this day and age you have Kouta and Lance on the ground at the same time....

Even worse..... now get this... Kouta reckons that he should come straight in and play off the bench....its not as if we dont have enough bench players in our side..we need Kouta.....Kouta for Joey Anderson.... :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:59 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Synbad wrote:
chubbyruss wrote:
We won't have to tank while Pagan is still the Coach. It will happen naturally :oops:
The problem with the organic tank under Pagan is.......
... he would sign up Kouta for another year... and drop a kid to rush him right back..
.. we kept Lance instead of trading him the way Hawthorn traded their over the hill players...
... shithouse understanding of the modern game... another wasted year of development for the kids...

You get the pick and develop by retiring Kouta... trading Lance... and developing the kids properly....

Imagine in this day and age you have Kouta and Lance on the ground at the same time....

Even worse..... now get this... Kouta reckons that he should come straight in and play off the bench....its not as if we dont have enough bench players in our side..we need Kouta.....Kouta for Joey Anderson.... :roll:


I know what you mean Kouta and Lappin will sign up along with Whitnall,then someone like Adam Hartlett,Craig Flint and Anthony Raso will get delisted,because in no way will there be only 4 players going when the season over and some one like Hartlett is running out of time to impress the club when he hasn't had a go. I'm really wondering who is going after the season,were not the eagles that will just delist 3 as they have a great list,it would be at least 6 or 7 especially if we promote someone.


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:12 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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This round has been perfect for Carlton. We will get our Priority Pick (pick 1) without even getting the wooden spoon thanks to the sorry Tigers and Demons. Picks 1 and 4 are fine by me. The pressure is off us as we can afford to keep losing as long as the Tigers and Demons follow suit.

Lets be smart how we go about this.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:13 pm
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GAVROMAN wrote:
This round has been perfect for Carlton. We will get our Priority Pick (pick 1) without even getting the wooden spoon thanks to the sorry Tigers and Demons. Picks 1 and 4 are fine by me. The pressure is off us as we can afford to keep losing as long as the Tigers and Demons follow suit.

Lets be smart how we go about this.

We'll beat Richmond, but Melbourne would beat us after they pushed the Power all the way without Mclean and Robertson.

Carlton will just keep adding good kids for the next two drafts to satisfy those who want more A grade talent, but our 22 will resemble a junior side.

Our draft picks will be pounded in the seniors like Murphy on Friday night since we lack the mature bodies of a Hawthorn to back them up or give them a rest in the twos. See Xavier Ellis who is being developed the correct way and not played when he needs a rest from the AFL.

We should be able to do this with Bryce when he needs a rest and he has said he's found the AFL faster than he expected it to be.

But you only need good kids and to trade your older players to become a future heavy weight like the Hawks! :garthp:

The Tigers offloaded Ottens for picks and picked duds when they won the spoon. :idea: :wink:

Adding 3 top 20 picks is great but we'll still be in the same situation next year unless they're all Chris Judds and ready to go. :(

We need to trade heavily but we don't have the cattle to attract a senior player in a straight swap to acquire another midfielder. And we won't offload a pick like the Eagles did to bring the experienced Stenglein to the club.

When will this nightmare end? :?

The draft just sends you back down the bottom if you pick the wrong players, don't have the funds to scout all the kids like the poorer clubs or have had draft penalties which cost you the likes of Wells, Goddard and Mclean. :evil:

The draft is fools gold for losers.

/endofrant


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:05 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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The key is more to get a key player in the mix to help develope and mentor our gun kids.

We can get all the 1st round draft picks we want but we have no mentors or experienced key players to help em they will develope slower than the lesser picks in other sides.

We dont have the right mix with such a lack of key experienced players and with Stevo going down has put real pressure on kids like Gibbs and Murphy

All good getting some good kids but somewhere along the line we need some experienced talent to assist in there developement.

This year more important to target a Gun Key player critically a midfielder as The loss of Stevo highlights how important that is for our young midfielders.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

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I believe Richmond are in the position they're in because of their constant mid table finishes. They had only one year in 2004, where they got a priority pick, rather than bottom out properly. They should have had 2 or 3 years near the bottom like Hawthorn, to gain extra early draft picks.

Finishing mid table breeds mediocrecy. This is why in the current Afl Draft system, if you are not going to make the finals, you are better finishing near the bottom to get better draft picks.

Sure there have been duds early in the draft, but over a 2-3 year period of bottoming out, surely 4-5 of the early 6 players chosen will be gun players.

This is why I believe we should finish about 14th this year with 4 or less wins.

Based on the current ladder if Richmond, Melbourne and Carlton were the only teams to win 4 or less games in 2007 the draft picks of these 3 teams would be:

Richmond - selection 2 (1st pick)
selection 18 (priority pick)

Melbourne- selection 3 (1st pick)
selection 19 (priority pick)

Carlton - selection 1 (priority pick)
selection 4 (1st pick)

So if we finish 14th with 4 or less wins, we would have taken a step forward by finishing 2 spots higher on the ladder compared to 2006 and in the same time avoiding the wooden spoon. in addition to this we would have the 1st pick in the draft and the 4th pick in the draft.

Based on this, I think we should make the most of the draft and win 4 or less games in 2007 without getting the wooden spoon, but getting picks 1 and 4 in this years draft.

We would be the big winners of this years draft. Imagine how the tigers would feel getting the wooden spoon and only getting picks 2 and 18, compared to us finishing 14th with picks 1 and 4.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:27 am 
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Rod Ashman
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GAVROMAN wrote:
This round has been perfect for Carlton. We will get our Priority Pick (pick 1) without even getting the wooden spoon thanks to the sorry Tigers and Demons. Picks 1 and 4 are fine by me. The pressure is off us as we can afford to keep losing as long as the Tigers and Demons follow suit.

Lets be smart how we go about this.


Hows that possible,we won 2 games if we win another 2 we can't get it that would be 8 and a half wins in 2 years,half a game more,isn't it only for 8 wins in 2 years.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:31 am 
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Harry Vallence

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we won 3 games and 1 draw last year.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:47 am 
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Harry Vallence

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If we lose 4 or less games then so be it. But I would prefer to put our best team out there week in week out, so we can be competitive, because a competitive team develops more than a non competitive team getting thrashed every week. Plus we maintain moral, respect, members, sponsors, players, etc, etc. Continue to play the kids (which the MC are doing) as well as some senior players that are quality and deserve to be in the team (Lappin, Kouta, Lance).

And another good reason is that tanking to obtain early draft picks doesn't guarantee anything. It's not the way to go about it, as it only installs a poor culture at the club. I, as much as anyone, would love to have a whole bunch of early draft kids, but I would never condone putting out a losing team each week just for the sake of those picks. Certainly not before the last few rounds of the year. If we get the picks by playing well, but only winning a handful of games, then so be it - I'll happily take the picks then. But playing for picks is dispicable. It's not Carlton.

Below is an analysis of the last two grand final teams and the age and picks each player was. As you can see, the middle rounds of the draft (rounds 2 & 3) is where most players come from that end up being premiership players. That is because it is in that range that you have to successfully pick up solid, hard (but classy) workers of the team that gets you to a premiership.

It also shows that premierships are won by mature bodied teams not kids, so we have to be patient until our kids grow up. We must develop and nurture the kids as well as retain them and that can't be done by playing 22 kids each week and letting them get flogged.

Obviously there are a hell of a lot of intangibles that goes into developing a premiership team - coaching, luck with injuries, game plan and team work, etc. But I thought i would present some facts:

Age on day of GF - Player Name - Inital Draft Pick

Sydney 2006 Grand Final Team:

27 - Nic Fosdike - 3
21 - Jarrad McVeigh - 5
27 - Jude Bolton - 8
30 - Barry Hall - 19 (Trade)
27 - Nick Davis - 19 (Trade)
24 - Luke Ablett - 24
24 - Ted Richards - 27 (Trade)
23 - Lewis R-Thomson - 29 (Zone)
26 - Craig Bolton - 33 (PSD)
30 - Michael O'Loughlin - 40
27 - Adam Goodes - 43
24 - Amon Buchanan - 52
26 - Ryan O'Keefe - 56
22 - Adam Schneider - 60
22 - Nick Malceski - 64

30 - Brett Kirk - Rookie
25 - Tadhg Kennelly - Rookie

23 - Sean Dempster - 34 (FS)
25 - Stephen Doyle - 26 (FS)
25 - Darren Jolly - ??
29 - Leo Barry - Zone
28 - Ben Mathews - Zone

WCE 2006 Grand Final Team

27 David Wirrpunda - 1 (compensation selection)
33 - Drew Banfield - 1
23 Chris Judd - 3
21 Beau Waters - 11
25 Darren Glass - 11
23 Daniel Kerr - 18
24 - Quinten Lynch - 19
21 - Sam Butler - 20
22 - Mark Seaby - 22
31 Daniel Chick - 25 (Trade)
23 - Steven Armstrong - 25 (Trade)
27 - Rowan Jones - 28
26 - Tyson Stenglein - 29 (Trade)
25 Adan Hunter - 29
24 Ashley Hansen - 38
22 Adam Selwood - 53
29 - Michael Braun - 53
25 Andrew Embley - 57

24 Brett Jones - Rookie
27 Chad Fletcher - Rookie
25 - Dean Cox - Rookie

28 Ben Cousins - ?? (FS)

Points to note:
- Sydney average age = 25.6
- WCE average age = 25.2
- Sydney average draft pick* = 32.1 (2 Rookies, 2 FS, 3 Zone picks, not sure about D Jolly was a trade but dont know his initial pick)
- WCE average draft pick* = 24.6 (3 Rookies and one FS)

* taking out Rookies, FS, Compensation picks
Note: Ages have been rounded (up or down) to the nearest year.

Carlton's Current Squad
18 - Bryce Gibbs - 1
20 - Marc Murphy - 1
21 - Andrew Walker - 2
20 - Josh Kennedy - 4
21 - Jordan Russell - 9
25 - Dylan McLaren - 9 (Trade)
28 - Jason Saddington - 11 (Trade)
25 - Simon Wiggins - 15
19 - Shaun Hampson - 17
19 - Shaun Grigg - 19
19 - Paul Bower - 20
27 - Nick Stevens - 25 (Pre Season)
25 - Cain Ackland - 27 (Pre Season)
21 - Adam Hartlett - 25
18 - Mark Austin - 35
19 - Jake Edwards - 36
26 - Brendan Fevola - 38
31 - Matthew Lappin - 40 (Trade)
22 - Cameron Cloke - 43 (Trade)
27 - Heath Scotland - 44 (Trade)
23 - Kade Simpson - 45
25 - Jordan Bannister - 47 (Trade)
19 - Clint Benjamin - 51
18 - Joe Anderson - 67
23 - Brad Fisher - 72
25 - Ryan Houlihan - 73
20 - Anthony Raso - 77

21 - Luke Blackwell - 41 (FS)
24 - Jarrad Waite - 46 (FS)
28 - Lance Whitnall 49 (FS)
34 - Anthony Koutoufides - Zone

20 - Eddie Betts - Pre Season
26 - David Teague - Rookie (Trade)
24 - Setanta O'hAilpin - Rookie
24 - Brett Thornton - Rookie
23 - Andrew Carrazzo - Rookie
22 - Adam Bentick - Rookie
20 - Ryan Jackson - Rookie
24 - Ross Young - Rookie
20 - Craig Flint - Rookie

Average age is 22.4 and average pick is 31.6 (taking out the FS, Rookies, and Kouta - Zone pick). Given that a number of late picks are speculative and won't play in a premiership, the average pick would come down to the mid to late 20s which is good enough to do well. If we can't make it work in 4-5 years with the picks we have, then there is something very wrong with the development, coaching, recruiting and trading at Carlton. It means that we will never do well because we should have enough talent now (for 3-5 years time), comparing it with other successful clubs.

We have been near the bottom for long enough. It's time to bite the bullet and start making some in roads. That means to build a game plan and a solid foundation of competitive performances from here on out. We will get a high draft pick no matter what (given our current form) and we have virtually no chance of getting the priority pick because we will win at least 3 more games. So lets see the year out with at least another 6-7 wns to give us confidence for the next few years. That's the way you develop a team - by playing winning football. The 3rd or 4th pick in the draft should be just as good as the 1st or 2nd pick if we do the right scouting.

The West Coast Eagles should be a role model for the Blues. They have played finals football every year in the past 16 years since the AFL has been running except for 2 years where they finished 13 an 14. In that time they have played in 5 grand finals and have won 3 of premierships. They may even go on for a few more. They have never needed to tank because they have a culture of success. That's the same culture we have to develop. A culture where we can consistently stay at the top by the best recruiting, best resources, good player management, etc. Gone are the days where we can buy success. And we shouldn't fall into the trap of St Kilda or Richmond who's culture of losing gets them no where.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:23 am 
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Bruce Doull
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nytdog wrote:
If we lose 4 or less games then so be it. But I would prefer to put our best team out there week in week out, so we can be competitive, because a competitive team develops more than a non competitive team getting thrashed every week. Plus we maintain moral, respect, members, sponsors, players, etc, etc. Continue to play the kids (which the MC are doing) as well as some senior players that are quality and deserve to be in the team (Lappin, Kouta, Lance).

And another good reason is that tanking to obtain early draft picks doesn't guarantee anything. It's not the way to go about it, as it only installs a poor culture at the club. I, as much as anyone, would love to have a whole bunch of early draft kids, but I would never condone putting out a losing team each week just for the sake of those picks. Certainly not before the last few rounds of the year. If we get the picks by playing well, but only winning a handful of games, then so be it - I'll happily take the picks then. But playing for picks is dispicable. It's not Carlton.

Below is an analysis of the last two grand final teams and the age and picks each player was. As you can see, the middle rounds of the draft (rounds 2 & 3) is where most players come from that end up being premiership players. That is because it is in that range that you have to successfully pick up solid, hard (but classy) workers of the team that gets you to a premiership.

It also shows that premierships are won by mature bodied teams not kids, so we have to be patient until our kids grow up. We must develop and nurture the kids as well as retain them and that can't be done by playing 22 kids each week and letting them get flogged.

Obviously there are a hell of a lot of intangibles that goes into developing a premiership team - coaching, luck with injuries, game plan and team work, etc. But I thought i would present some facts:

Age on day of GF - Player Name - Inital Draft Pick

Sydney 2006 Grand Final Team:

27 - Nic Fosdike - 3
21 - Jarrad McVeigh - 5
27 - Jude Bolton - 8
30 - Barry Hall - 19 (Trade)
27 - Nick Davis - 19 (Trade)
24 - Luke Ablett - 24
24 - Ted Richards - 27 (Trade)
23 - Lewis R-Thomson - 29 (Zone)
26 - Craig Bolton - 33 (PSD)
30 - Michael O'Loughlin - 40
27 - Adam Goodes - 43
24 - Amon Buchanan - 52
26 - Ryan O'Keefe - 56
22 - Adam Schneider - 60
22 - Nick Malceski - 64

30 - Brett Kirk - Rookie
25 - Tadhg Kennelly - Rookie

23 - Sean Dempster - 34 (FS)
25 - Stephen Doyle - 26 (FS)
25 - Darren Jolly - ??
29 - Leo Barry - Zone
28 - Ben Mathews - Zone

WCE 2006 Grand Final Team

27 David Wirrpunda - 1 (compensation selection)
33 - Drew Banfield - 1
23 Chris Judd - 3
21 Beau Waters - 11
25 Darren Glass - 11
23 Daniel Kerr - 18
24 - Quinten Lynch - 19
21 - Sam Butler - 20
22 - Mark Seaby - 22
31 Daniel Chick - 25 (Trade)
23 - Steven Armstrong - 25 (Trade)
27 - Rowan Jones - 28
26 - Tyson Stenglein - 29 (Trade)
25 Adan Hunter - 29
24 Ashley Hansen - 38
22 Adam Selwood - 53
29 - Michael Braun - 53
25 Andrew Embley - 57

24 Brett Jones - Rookie
27 Chad Fletcher - Rookie
25 - Dean Cox - Rookie

28 Ben Cousins - ?? (FS)

Points to note:
- Sydney average age = 25.6
- WCE average age = 25.2
- Sydney average draft pick* = 32.1 (2 Rookies, 2 FS, 3 Zone picks, not sure about D Jolly was a trade but dont know his initial pick)
- WCE average draft pick* = 24.6 (3 Rookies and one FS)

* taking out Rookies, FS, Compensation picks
Note: Ages have been rounded (up or down) to the nearest year.

Carlton's Current Squad
18 - Bryce Gibbs - 1
20 - Marc Murphy - 1
21 - Andrew Walker - 2
20 - Josh Kennedy - 4
21 - Jordan Russell - 9
25 - Dylan McLaren - 9 (Trade)
28 - Jason Saddington - 11 (Trade)
25 - Simon Wiggins - 15
19 - Shaun Hampson - 17
19 - Shaun Grigg - 19
19 - Paul Bower - 20
27 - Nick Stevens - 25 (Pre Season)
25 - Cain Ackland - 27 (Pre Season)
21 - Adam Hartlett - 25
18 - Mark Austin - 35
19 - Jake Edwards - 36
26 - Brendan Fevola - 38
31 - Matthew Lappin - 40 (Trade)
22 - Cameron Cloke - 43 (Trade)
27 - Heath Scotland - 44 (Trade)
23 - Kade Simpson - 45
25 - Jordan Bannister - 47 (Trade)
19 - Clint Benjamin - 51
18 - Joe Anderson - 67
23 - Brad Fisher - 72
25 - Ryan Houlihan - 73
20 - Anthony Raso - 77

21 - Luke Blackwell - 41 (FS)
24 - Jarrad Waite - 46 (FS)
28 - Lance Whitnall 49 (FS)
34 - Anthony Koutoufides - Zone

20 - Eddie Betts - Pre Season
26 - David Teague - Rookie (Trade)
24 - Setanta O'hAilpin - Rookie
24 - Brett Thornton - Rookie
23 - Andrew Carrazzo - Rookie
22 - Adam Bentick - Rookie
20 - Ryan Jackson - Rookie
24 - Ross Young - Rookie
20 - Craig Flint - Rookie

Average age is 22.4 and average pick is 31.6 (taking out the FS, Rookies, and Kouta - Zone pick). Given that a number of late picks are speculative and won't play in a premiership, the average pick would come down to the mid to late 20s which is good enough to do well. If we can't make it work in 4-5 years with the picks we have, then there is something very wrong with the development, coaching, recruiting and trading at Carlton. It means that we will never do well because we should have enough talent now (for 3-5 years time), comparing it with other successful clubs.

We have been near the bottom for long enough. It's time to bite the bullet and start making some in roads. That means to build a game plan and a solid foundation of competitive performances from here on out. We will get a high draft pick no matter what (given our current form) and we have virtually no chance of getting the priority pick because we will win at least 3 more games. So lets see the year out with at least another 6-7 wns to give us confidence for the next few years. That's the way you develop a team - by playing winning football. The 3rd or 4th pick in the draft should be just as good as the 1st or 2nd pick if we do the right scouting.

The West Coast Eagles should be a role model for the Blues. They have played finals football every year in the past 16 years since the AFL has been running except for 2 years where they finished 13 an 14. In that time they have played in 5 grand finals and have won 3 of premierships. They may even go on for a few more. They have never needed to tank because they have a culture of success. That's the same culture we have to develop. A culture where we can consistently stay at the top by the best recruiting, best resources, good player management, etc. Gone are the days where we can buy success. And we shouldn't fall into the trap of St Kilda or Richmond who's culture of losing gets them no where.


Ah my friend nytdog... your own argument is the problem we have.
When Lance and Kouta are "quality" in our side... we are poor...

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:00 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:21 am
Posts: 1684
Location: Parkville
Synbad, again you present your irrelevant, subjective opinion. Provide some facts instead of repeating the same old garbage.

No one here is saying that Kouta or Lance are going to lead us to the next flag. All we are (repeatedly) saying is that we need to play our best team ATM in order to be competitive and look after/develop the kids. What about that don't you understand? If you can honestly tell me that there is a kid that will perform better than Lance or Kouta who is missing out this week (with some proof rather than an opinion), I'll eat my words.

But I know you can't (objectively), because there isn't. Yes we all want to see Bower in the team, but that's when he deserves it and not in place of someone that is going to help our team and kids improve (Kouta).


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