TalkingCarlton :: View topic - What is the balance.

Look at Brisbane, last year they blooded as many young guys as possible, and they have games under their belts. Look at them progress now.

Fevola wrote:

Look at Brisbane, last year they blooded as many young guys as possible, and they have games under their belts. Look at them progress now.

One small point you failed to mentioned in that statement is that the Lions were completely decimated with injury last year and had to promote 5 or 6 rookies to the list just to field a team.

But never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Blue Vain I see where you are coming from and I agree to a small extent. I don't agree that Saddington shouldn't be playing. As I mentioned the other week I think Kouta, Lappo and Whits should have been rested more than Saddington.

The kids will get their chance soon enough. Perhaps some are just being left out to build up some real hunger rather than just making it an attendance course for the next in line. Play and train consistently and you get a look in. Nothing wrong with that theory IMHO.

Regards Cazzesman

This is the line of reasoning I agree with. My emotional reaction is to see the new guys play, but a bit of patience can do wonders in some cases. Marc Murphy was the type ready to go from day one, but others will take more time.

When I think back, my favourite player of all time was Bruce Doull, and he had to serve a long stint in the reserves before getting a decent run. While people condemn Denis Pagan in many areas, I have a great deal of confidence in his handling of young players. I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell.

It's too early to judge the success of Brisbane's youngsters, and watching them last night, they still have fundamental decision making problems, which will be magnified once the regular season starts.

As much as I want our young blokes to get a run, I want it to be when they're ready.

While people condemn Denis Pagan in many areas, I have a great deal of confidence in his handling of young players. I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell.

The kids will get their chance soon enough. Perhaps some are just being left out to build up some real hunger rather than just making it an attendance course for the next in line. Play and train consistently and you get a look in. Nothing wrong with that theory IMHO.

Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick

Used the bench to rest players - tick

jimmae wrote:

Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick

Used the bench to rest players - tick

You should try watching the game.

Rotations were insufficient and the bench was again used to hide players.

Decisions are made and those on the MC know the abilities and injuries of the players better than us. I suppose I am asking what is the priority of posters for the NAB cup and the 07 season.

I'm sorry Jack but I see no evidence of Denis handling young players well whatsoever.
Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct.

As much as I want our young blokes to get a run, I want it to be when they're ready.

I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell.

jimmae wrote:

Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick

Used the bench to rest players - tick

You should try watching the game.

Rotations were insufficient and the bench was again used to hide players.

That's what he should be judged on, how we develop our youngsters

Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct.

We are so obsessed with teaching these kids the defensive side of the game that we forget what their strengths were.

There's no right or wrong ...they are just opinions.

Decisions are made and those on the MC know the abilities and injuries of the players better than us. I suppose I am asking what is the priority of posters for the NAB cup and the 07 season.

I'm sorry Jack but I see no evidence of Denis handling young players well whatsoever.
Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct.

Here you're taking a pot shot. Jack has already explained himself.

How can you say that Denis hasn't done the right thing when we have no idea how they have benefited. I agree with Jack that Walker and Simmo have benefited for themselves and for the team in the long run from the way they have been handled thus far.

But that's my opinion.

Whitnall (must regain match fitness at senior level good for the season propper) WIN

Author:	Blue Vain [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	What is the balance.
What are your expectations from the NAB cup and how do you want to utilise it? Is it an opportunity to play kids and expose them to near top level football or is it a dress rehearsal to the season? Whilst obtaining a winning culture is important, how does that restrict or assist a developmental system? The MC have stated that they want to get a settled back six. Is that how we should utilise the pre season competition? If you look at our National draft recruiting over the past years, I'd suggest we've been relatively successful. We've picked plenty of quality kids and whilst "I've been extra critical of Pagan trading mid range picks, we've assembled some talented youngsters. Yet of the approximately 15 kids we've selected over that time, I recall 4 playing in the NAB series to date. Is that enough? I personally dont think so. As a club, we need to have the courage to make development our main priority. Winning is crucial to our confidence and development but have we put winning at the top of the list? I personally believe Kouta was underdone with his late start to training and Jake Edwards or Shaun Grigg could have had a run. Saddo has come along well from injury and I'd love to see him get a good run at it but he has come in ahead of Bower. I would have played a youngster at the expense of Whitnall who only restarted full traing the week of the NAB cup starting. Would that have cost us a win? Probably though I dont believe any of the above have contributed much. Could Blackers have improved with a run in the NAB cup? Possibly. The situation is that somewhere along the way in our growth as a team, the coach will need to decide between winning games and development of players. If for example the long term development of the club is hindered by choosing an older player over a kid, what should the coach decide if it means his win/loss ratio suffers? IMO, we are in a development phase and the younger player should always get the nod in a near 50/50 situation. If that means we win 5 games instead of 8, so be it. It worries me that Denis will see light at the end of the tunnel now and play full strength, mature sides at the expense of development. Lastly, let me say that this is just my opinion and I'm not saying it is correct but I've been consistent in my view. We must keep long term development as our main aim and it should be Pagans primary brief. That's what he should be judged on, how we develop our youngsters, not how many games he wins. It will take as much courage from the supporters as it will from the coaching staff to occasionally sacrifice a win with an eye to the future. Especially when we are taking reasonable steps forward. What are your thoughts? Lastly, let me say that some of the youngsters in the 15 nominated are unable to play due to inury (Raso, Benjamin).

Author:	Drewgirl [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:37 am ]
Post subject:
True Blue Vain, just a few more kids in there to replace Kouta, Lappin and Saddington and if need be Whitnall would not hurt. Bringing in McLaren for this weeks squad is crap. He has been injured, its not like its a matter of life and death that we are rushing him into the side. Bower should be establishing himself in the back half. Why play saddington on the bench. Best to give a young guy experience. Look at Brisbane, last year they blooded as many young guys as possible, and they have games under their belts. Look at them progress now. Personally I don't think Pagan is a youth developer and is not suited to our current needs of rebuilding a side for the future. Footy has changed so so much, we need a younger coach who can think in todays footy world. Pagan is a stubborn as they come and is trying to protect his job. He could not give a crap about our club. I fully believe this. Shoot me down if you all want, but as long as Pagan is here, we will not move forward in the way we would like.

Author:	Blue Vain [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:07 am ]
Post subject:
Decisions are made and those on the MC know the abilities and injuries of the players better than us. I suppose I am asking what is the priority of posters for the NAB cup and the 07 season. Pagan would know the capabilities of the players better than I would but it also comes down to the philosophical direction of the club. I dont want to pot Pagan (though he often deserves it IMO ) but I'm more interested in what direction posters want the MC to take and if they believe it is being done.

Author:	Cazzesman [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:17 am ]
Post subject:
Fevola wrote: Look at Brisbane, last year they blooded as many young guys as possible, and they have games under their belts. Look at them progress now. One small point you failed to mentioned in that statement is that the Lions were completely decimated with injury last year and had to promote 5 or 6 rookies to the list just to field a team. But never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Blue Vain I see where you are coming from and I agree to a small extent. I don't agree that Saddington shouldn't be playing. As I mentioned the other week I think Kouta, Lappo and Whits should have been rested more than Saddington. The kids will get their chance soon enough. Perhaps some are just being left out to build up some real hunger rather than just making it an attendance course for the next in line. Play and train consistently and you get a look in. Nothing wrong with that theory IMHO. Regards Cazzesman

Author:	Drewgirl [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:30 am ]
Post subject:
Agree Cazz. Brisbane had no choice because of injury etc. But just goes to show what game time, and self belief and confidence will do for a youngster. Show a youngster that you believe in them and they will give you their all. For example, Jordan Russell, with some belief from Denis and I reckon will show him explode in the midfield. Edwards, Hartlett, Blackwell, Bower should be shown at least some sort of game time............ Just rotate them in between games, because we cannot fit them all in.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

What is the balance. http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15043	Page 1 of 3

Author:	SparkyBlue [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm ]
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The most important thing that needs to be established, IMO more important than a set 22 - or a concrete backline... is a winning mentality. I believe it was important for the guys to start off with a win or two in the NAB Cup... to further that we were playing teams that were close to full strength and were both looking to win. Getting those wins on the board, lifting the spirits of the team on the back of more good news recently is exactly what we need... Agreed Whitnall and Kouta could have been AWOL for these matches, but in Koutas case wasn't he given extra time off prior to the pre-season due to his work with DWTS? And, at his age a full-on pre-season might not be the best thing for him - so in effect missing a few NAB Cup matches couldn't have hurt either... I'm all for 'giving the kids a chance', but I believe that Pagan was only playing the young guys that are going to be in the shortlist for Round 1 - i.e Gibbs, Bower, JK, JR, Setanta, Hartlett... ...as for the rest - http://bullants.footballvic.com.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&aid=115444 At least in the Ants practice matches they will be more likely to get 4 quarters under their belts...

Author:	JackWorrall [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Cazzesman wrote: Fevola wrote: Look at Brisbane, last year they blooded as many young guys as possible, and they have games under their belts. Look at them progress now. One small point you failed to mentioned in that statement is that the Lions were completely decimated with injury last year and had to promote 5 or 6 rookies to the list just to field a team. But never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Blue Vain I see where you are coming from and I agree to a small extent. I don't agree that Saddington shouldn't be playing. As I mentioned the other week I think Kouta, Lappo and Whits should have been rested more than Saddington. The kids will get their chance soon enough. Perhaps some are just being left out to build up some real hunger rather than just making it an attendance course for the next in line. Play and train consistently and you get a look in. Nothing wrong with that theory IMHO. Regards Cazzesman This is the line of reasoning I agree with. My emotional reaction is to see the new guys play, but a bit of patience can do wonders in some cases. Marc Murphy was the type ready to go from day one, but others will take more time. When I think back, my favourite player of all time was Bruce Doull, and he had to serve a long stint in the reserves before getting a decent run. While people condemn Denis Pagan in many areas, I have a great deal of confidence in his handling of young players. I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell. It's too early to judge the success of Brisbane's youngsters, and watching them last night, they still have fundamental decision making problems, which will be magnified once the regular season starts. As much as I want our young blokes to get a run, I want it to be when they're ready.

Author:	Kaptain Kouta [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:
JackWorrall wrote: This is the line of reasoning I agree with. My emotional reaction is to see the new guys play, but a bit of patience can do wonders in some cases. Marc Murphy was the type ready to go from day one, but others will take more time. When I think back, my favourite player of all time was Bruce Doull, and he had to serve a long stint in the reserves before getting a decent run. While people condemn Denis Pagan in many areas, I have a great deal of confidence in his handling of young players. I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell. It's too early to judge the success of Brisbane's youngsters, and watching them last night, they still have fundamental decision making problems, which will be magnified once the regular season starts. As much as I want our young blokes to get a run, I want it to be when they're ready. Totally agree, Jack. Well put.

Author:	Blue Vain [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:
JackWorrall wrote: While people condemn Denis Pagan in many areas, I have a great deal of confidence in his handling of young players. I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell. I'm sorry Jack but I see no evidence of Denis handling young players well whatsoever. Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct. One of the players you mentioned was one of the most instinctive and free spirited players I've seen in junior ranks. He is now a back pocket in his 4th year of AFL football. Yet he was the second best ranked player in the country!. Tell me what improvements specifically have you seen in Andrew Walker since his first game 3 years ago? The other is a number 9 pick super athlete who picked up 4 possessions in what many describe as his best game in his 3 years at the club. We are so obsessed with teaching these kids the defensive side of the game that we forget what their strengths were. Cazzesman wrote: The kids will get their chance soon enough. Perhaps some are just being left out to build up some real hunger rather than just making it an attendance course for the next in line. Play and train consistently and you get a look in. Nothing wrong with that theory IMHO. Sorry Cazz but this is old school stuff IMO. Its fine to make players hungry but what guidelines do they work by? If I run my arse off during pre season does it get me a game? If I be disciplined and do extras does it get me a game? If I perform better than some of my senior team mates or dont get caught at the pub at 5.00am, does it get me a game? The days of "you'll get a game when I say" are well gone. Many of our kids performed far better on the track than their "experienced" teammates. We have kids on our list who deserved a game well before many of our senior players in the NAB Cup and didnt get it. That cant be excused with "making them hungry". The rules must apply to all or none IMO.

Author:	hannahadhair [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:
In an ideal world it would have been great to load up completely with the kids. I have pushed for this. Dificultly lies in trying to calculate the risks of exposing them to early losses and then the circuit. Results suggest that the mix has been pretty right over the past two games. Close wins and some youngsters have got a taste. personally I would have liked to see Lappin, Kouta and Saddington rested but then again we need these guys with some miles in the legs come round one. I am also on the record as saying that I believe we have achieved enough out of NAB cup and should now load up further - Rest Kouta, Fev, Lappin, Whits. I am ok with Blackers not having played to date- We know him. want to see Bower, Harts and grigg. If we winn win tonight I say go for the 500 gees.

Author:	Sydney Blue [ Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:
Last year he went full strength until we lost - This year I was hoping we would lose round 1

Author:	jimmae [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Took Saddo out of the line up - tick Limited use of Whitnall (seemingly down on previous weeks), Lappin (seemingly up on previous weeks) & Kouta (seemingly the same as the last few) - tick Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick Used the bench to rest players - tick Made good on-field changes (reacted to smaller forward set up by Kangas, threw Waite forward, Hartlett back, etc) - tick I would have liked to have seen guys like Lappin, Kouta, Whitnall, Scotland and Stevens rested in groups (eg. Lappin, Whitnall & Scotland one week, Kouta & Stevens another) for at least the opening two weeks in favour of trying a few guys like Harlett, Grigg, Anderson, et al and I probably would have liked Ackland out for Hamspon in Round 2, but all in all it's not that bad. IMO the only guys who have really missed out in all of this are Flint, Blackwell and (if fit) Wiggins. Everyone else is a known quantity, physically not up to it or a first year player.

Author:	Blue Vain [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:
jimmae wrote: Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick Used the bench to rest players - tick You should try watching the game. Rotations were insufficient and the bench was again used to hide players.

Author:	Synbad [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: jimmae wrote: Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick Used the bench to rest players - tick You should try watching the game. Rotations were insufficient and the bench was again used to hide players. bench used to hide 'PLAYER CAPTAIN'

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Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:
There's no right or wrong ...they are just opinions. Blue Vain wrote Quote: Decisions are made and those on the MC know the abilities and injuries of the players better than us. I suppose I am asking what is the priority of posters for the NAB cup and the 07 season. No you're not. Quote: I'm sorry Jack but I see no evidence of Denis handling young players well whatsoever. Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct. Here you're taking a pot shot. Jack has already explained himself. Jack stated Quote: As much as I want our young blokes to get a run, I want it to be when they're ready. Quote: I think guys such as Kade Simpson is a good example of correct management to realise their potential, and I think we're starting to see the best of others such as Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell. How can you say that Denis hasn't done the right thing when we have no idea how they have benefited. I agree with Jack that Walker and Simmo have benefited for themselves and for the team in the long run from the way they have been handled thus far. But that's my opinion. We have selected to play in Feb-March 2007 preseason cup: 1 Gibbs 17 2 Bower 18 3 Murphy 19 4 Kennedy 19 5 Betts 19 6 Russell 19 7 Hartlett 20 8 Walker 20 9 Bentick 21 10Simpson 21 Imo 10 players under 21 is a good case of blooding young players, considering only 1 has played 50 games. The argument is starting to sound like a 'no go zone' for mature players in your Carlton. Lets look at the oldest players in our squad: Kouta (9 possessions in Q4 in last weeks win). WIN Lappin (steadies us with smarts at pressure moments) WIN Whitnall (must regain match fitness at senior level good for the season propper) WIN Stevens (has been a winning ingredient in all games) WIN Scotland (has been solid and added much needed steadiness for our new backline) WIN As a group they have contributed to our wins, and I wouldn't swap that for the world....maybe a 17th premiership in 2007-8.

Author:	jimmae [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: jimmae wrote: Rotated through the middle regularly enough - tick Used the bench to rest players - tick You should try watching the game. Rotations were insufficient and the bench was again used to hide players. Well apparently I got the rest right. I just have lower expectations than you BV. Any improvement is a good thing in my book. Hopefully Paul Ford starts chiming in about it soon.

Author:	TheBluesMuse [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: That's what he should be judged on, how we develop our youngsters Where is your point of reference for a valid judgment of this BV?

Author:	Jarusa [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct. Robot? Robot? http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/ACTToC_forwards.htm Robot? Robot? Robot? OK, maybe Mark Roberts was a robot!

Author:	TruBlueBrad [ Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: We are so obsessed with teaching these kids the defensive side of the game that we forget what their strengths were. BV, I dont think its an obsession, but its an important learning tool for these guys. JR is playing very defensively at the moment and while Walker was a little more creative than Russell when he started out tagging, he was nothing like he is today. Now he's a confident running/spoiling machine. There's plenty of time to build on their strengths once we've taught them the other aspects of the game. The last thing I wasnt to see is another midfield of Camporeale/Scotland/Stevens/Kouta unaccountable types. Before anyone asks, Murphy is smart enough to not need to be trained this way and will spend his time resting up forward, Gibbs will spend enough time at Half Back.

Author:	Blue Vain [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:29 am ]
Post subject:
bondiblue wrote: There's no right or wrong ...they are just opinions. Blue Vain wrote Quote: Decisions are made and those on the MC know the abilities and injuries of the players better than us. I suppose I am asking what is the priority of posters for the NAB cup and the 07 season. Bondiblue wrote: No you're not. To the contrary, its exactly what I was asking. The thread was about the clubs philosophy through the pre season. Do we put a win in the NAB cup as a priority or do we use the pre season to put experience into our kids like some other sides have which may well result in losses. I'm not saying which is definitely right or wrong. I giving an opinion and asking posters thoughts. Quote: I'm sorry Jack but I see no evidence of Denis handling young players well whatsoever. Pagan stifles the natural creativity from players and produces robots with zero instinct. Bondiblue wrote: Here you're taking a pot shot. Jack has already explained himself. I'm taking a potshot at Jack am I? Jack stated that Pagan can develop players well and I disagree. Jack gave reasons and so did I. If Jack deems that is taking potshots at him, I'm sure he can speak for himself. Bondiblue wrote: How can you say that Denis hasn't done the right thing when we have no idea how they have benefited. I agree with Jack that Walker and Simmo have benefited for themselves and for the team in the long run from the way they have been handled thus far. But that's my opinion. No worries but I disagree. I've given plenty of reasons over the past 4 years why I believe Pagan has stifled he creativity of our players. But thats my opinion. If Jack is offended by that i'm more than happy to debate the point with him but I doubt his skin is as thin as yours. Bondiblue wrote: Whitnall (must regain match fitness at senior level good for the season propper) WIN A win? How does he regain match fitness sitting on the pine? He'd be better getting 4 quarters for the ants if that was the priority. Next.