Myself and a couple of the sexy squad boys (foolmont and shag) were driving home from the bullants game the other day and talking carlton (that sounds like a good name for a forum) and were talking about our list.

We all agreed that it isnt necessarily the talent that we are lacking, as we have talent in spades: i.e. Simmo, Murphy, Kennedy, Bower, etc etc..

However what i think the main problem is with the older guys, guys like waite, fisher, lappin, houlihan.

These guys are carlton through and through, dont get me wrong, im not doing another bag this player thread, but what i am saying is that there is no competition in the squad.

I mean, who else is competing for Jarrad Waites spot in the squad?
Who else is competing for Brad Fisher's spot in the squad?
Who else is competing for Matty Lappin's spot in the squad?

The more i think about it, the more i think that part of the problem is that there is no pressure on our senior players to perform to hold their spots.

Players like Waite, Fisher, Lappin, Houlihan, all know they are big Carlton names, the names the fans expect to see out there every week, So i think they get selected due to reputation rather than performance.

A big key for future success for the Carlton Football Club will be building competition within the squad itself.

Make no-ones position safe, every spot on the field should be up for grabs...not just the kids spots, not just the fringe players, everyone.

Make it a privelage to wear the navy blue, not just an expected way to spend a nice afternoon kicking the footy around as i think waite and co see it at the moment.

Make them pull their finger out to be assured a spot.

No-one on this list apart from Fev deserves to be safe.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

I like your thinking there.

To have more competition for every spot on the field will help improve the quality on field, as every player will be pushing himself to improve their skills, etc.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

exactly....at the moment im sure some of the guys are thinking...

well doesnt matter if i bust my guts to get that ball over there/sheperd/tackle/chase 50m because its not like i'll get dropped.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

all well and good - but if you're a quality person and you pride yourself on the determination to the best you can be and have that drilled into you by the coaching staff - then chances are that thought process doesn't occur.

If anything - the team that I witnessed going around for the 'Ants on Saturday were pumped because of their refusal to play like a team - and instead were playing like individuals.

Great Post BNZ



This is why we need to fast track the kids...we have so many of them, and so few established A-B graders in the seniors.

Take out the 23 yo players, who IMO should be trying to break into the team at that age, in their quest to become a permanent fixture, (who also happen to have been permanent fixtures in our seniors for a few seasons now, regardless of form (or lack of) and skillset), and you begin to see how thin we are with ready able bodies to take the field. This issue has been discussed earlier on in the year when we were debating whether we should be throwing into the senior team kids that are 18-20, and not really ready to play senior football at a reasonable level. This was not a discussion of talent but readiness for senior footy.

23 yo players include seniors Setanta, Waite, Thornton and Carrazzo, with peripheral players (not up to it) Bryan, Bannister, Davies. Of that group, Thornton has earned his spot. The there's a bunch of 24 yo that the same can be said: DeLuca, McLaren, Livingston, Sporn, Wiggins and Houlihan, where Houlihan can be the only one classified as a bona fide senior (not star).

The kids that we must do everything in our powers to step up in 2007 include 18 yo Bower, Blackwell, Raso and Edwards (Bower and Blackwell should); 19 yo Kennedy, Hartlett, Flint, Russell and Jackson (Murphy has, Kennedy, Hartlett and Russell should make it too).

You start to see a problem when we delist 7-9 players this year, that the pressure on our existing kids to hold their spot (and are still developing) is going to be exerted on them by 6-7 18 yo kids straight out of the draft.

We have a long way to go before there is genuine pressure for senior spots all over the ground, from senior bodies, but what may happen is that the competition for spots amongst kids may expedite their development, as they can see the challenge as an achievable one. No doubt they will be knocking hard on the door to break into the Carlton team, whereas if they were with any other club, that opportunity would be 2-3 years away.

We need to extend our rookie list to 6.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Someone must be because he was dropped at one stage and then had to fight his way back into the side. He said at the time that they told him there was no spot available to him in the team.

i actually think waitey and fish should be told that only one of them can remain in the forward line. With fev, kennedy, waite, fisher, and even whitnall moving up there sometimes it is too many talls. Fev is a definate in the forward line, kennedy is probably a definite as he begins to hold down CHF, and then the third tall should be out of waitey or fish. At this stage i think waitey can produce more up forward than fisher, but that would mean moving fisher out of the forward line. I think waite, although the better option up forward, is also the better option to use as the utility up the ground meaning fisher as the more permanent forward. Waite can be used up on the wings, along the half back line and with stints as a forward, becoming an impact player like adam hunter. Whilst fisher could remain more in the forward line permanently. He is a great mark, but he must get his goal kicking right or he will be useless.

Therefore if people like waite and fish are told that only one of them can remain in the forward line permanently, then if they both want to be the forward line player, they have to work hard to keep it or they have to find another position on the park.

Our club though is starting to get some depth, and even guys like bentick will have soon have to compete with blackwells etc and even new midfield draft picks if we get someone like proud, collard etc. Guys like houlihan will soon have to compete with jordan russell and ryan jackson. Times are exciting as yes, the players will now have to earn there spot more so than in the last few years.

If it's a competition between Waite and Fischer in the forward I'd slightly favour Fish. He really is a great mark and a matchup nightmare for other teams.

However, Fish really really needs to improve his goal kicking. This will make or break his career, since he really can't play anywhere else.

This summer we must make a concerted to improve our kicking skills. This past season our kicking skills (or lack of) absolutely killed us.

I know, I'm being Caption Obvious.

Dennis.

I think the key is the coaching staff to have the guts to drop players when they are out of form. Lappin was dropped towards the end of the season and had to fight his way back into the team. Scotland was dropped last year and had to fight his way back in. And what do you know? This year has been his best season.

Waite and Fisher are both good ordinary players at best. They do not punish the opposition teams at all and so should go back to learn how to do it.


Oh that Waite could have an impact like Adam Hunter. When was the last time that Waitey held down an opposition key forward, run him all over the ground and then go forward to kick 4 goals? Oh never?


In other words Fisher is useless now. Unless he can kick goals to threaten the opposition then he should pack his bags.

While I love them both for what their positives bring to the game, it wouldn't surprise me if we look at potentially trading one these two. I partially agree with mallee, for me, they both are just not quite there. If we could get a pick inside 10, I'd seriously consider it....This has been bugging me for a while now with these two, as I really want them to take the next step. Fish with his kicking & Waitey with consistency.

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...I'll ride the wave, where it takes me...

With regard to Fev and Waite - I don't disagree that they were disappointing this year. But I just wonder how much their injuries affected them? Fish missed a fair bit of footy, and so too did Waite. Would we have seen more from them if they hadn't have had the injuries? Possibly - and I guess that is what the club will need to address as we approach trade week.

Just to throw a curly question in here - when do you think the half-forward line worked better? When we had Fish in at the end of the season, or when we had Wiggins taking Fisher's spot while Fisher was injured?

Not a question that is easy to answer - but consider it an observation that Wiggins was a more than handy replacement when given the opportunity. When Fish came back we started to see more of the old Wiggo.

There's no real competition in the squad because 6 or 8 blokes were marked with 'Do not pick' at the start of the season and were only given minutes to do anything about it. Prendegast played 3 games and had 20 stats in one, then got 5 minutes on the park 2 weeks later and was dropped. Chambers got 2 games and 40 minutes and see ya later. Teague was picked to offer advice on the bench and then someone forgot to tell Pagan that Smith wasnt a 23 year old in his last year of footy, but a 19 year old rookie, and he only got 60 minutes or so.

I don't reckon these guys were hard done by but we went into 2006 with part of a list of guys they knew weren't going to make it. If youve got a good quota of draft picks coming through and 6 to 8 guys who were never going to be given a go then where does the competition come from? Caroline Wilson?

See I think Prendergast, Teague, Davies, Sporn, Chambers, Livingston and Longmuir were all really lucky to be on the list in 2006 based on 2005. But what did we do, keep them on, gave them 5 minutes here or there and then dumped them again.

I hope that the Club goes into Season 2007 with a list of players its confident about.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

i also think part of the problem lies with the MC.

Perhaps by dropping lappin to the twos, as pointed out, they wanted to send a message?

But if no one listens it is a message or just waving your dick in the wind?

The match commitee needs to take a hard stance with Carlton Football Club. Perform to the standard that the sacred navy blue jumper demands or find yourself running around in red and white.

The kids are demanding selection, and sure if we drop the stars for not performing and promote the kids we may get pumped.....we may not...

those kids, kids like Bower, Smith, Edwards, Kennedy, Blackwell, Russell, have all shown they will try their guts out..

if their promotion leads to players like fisher and waite and houlihan becoming disenchanted an wanting to leave the club, so be it, we dont need hangers on at this stage of our redevelopment.

Sure we have some stars, but in those kids, the ones pushing for selection, we have the opportunity to build a champion team. A team willing to play for eachother, willing to work hard to keep their spot in one of the proudest teams in the league.

The MC MUST make a stand...no one should be denied a game, regardless of the perceptions of them coming into the season, im not the biggest fan of teague and sporn but if they are racking up possessions in the twos and performing consistently then they deserve a game....

Jesus Christ, we cant go backwards can we?

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Well said. The message emanating from the Club appears to be about excuses and I think the time for that has past now. We have to be about pride / restoring the name / restoring the Club...If some senior players lose their position and move on then it has to be about the Club. That being said, I think Houlihan in particular would have cause to complain about 2006 after he was brought off his creation role and asked to tag for the last 2/3 of the year.

Just one question though - how do we know the senior guys aren't working their guts out? Some feel as though Waite is a bit of a lair but coming back from his injuries must have taken some effort. Fish cam straight back and became a wingman, working very hard. Houlihan - see above.

Pagan's continued line that 'we're working really hard' rings true. We are. That's just not good enough in today's game. Talent and skill are what is needed to lift the Club.

Waite has shown signs of a champion. He's one guy we count on as our match breaker and he's only 23. He has been dealt a bad run with injuries, but fights back and never gives up on the field.

Last year Sheedy picked him for the tour of Ireland. Why? Because he's 194cm and bloody fast. Can mark and kick goals.

He'll be a superstar.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Waite = Tarrant

Do you think he is that good

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Put him on the wing and let him roam between the arcs and use through the corridor out of defence like we did with Koutoufides. How many times did we see Christou to Koutoufides through the 90's. We used Kouta's mobility and marking power to great advantage and Waite is similar.

Fish works a hell of a lot more on the field than Waite does from my observations.

Waite by no means is guaranteed a game next year if he's not performing.

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There's so much I could say...

see this stuff is stupid, people saying waite doesn't work hard. From my observations waitey is the one still running 50m chasing someone. this is quite ridiculous how carlton fans continually put blame on players that do have talent. So what if he hasn't delivered as much as people would like so far, hes played 60 games!!! GIVE HIM TIME!

Again, for the people that say trade him is ridiculous. He will be a carlton player his entire career.

and just because he hasn't done what adam hunter does yet means nothing. I said hopefully we can try develop him into that kind of utility player. It's like saying, he hasn't kicked 7 goals in a game yet, doesn't mean he can't. so saying when was the last time he did an adam hunter and kicked 4 goals off his opponent at the other end is irrelvant. Hes played 60ish games, and i am absolutely sick to death of people putting blame on a guy that has actually DELIVERED a lot. How many guys that have played 63 games have kicked 72 goals, represented australia, got rising star nominations, polled votes in the brownlow etc. Yeh a lot have, but think how many players havent. so yeh he hasn't delivered what people have wanted him to because the expectations are too high at this stage. He has delivered quite a lot so far in his short career. Stop blaming him and other good players, this is just similar to blaming fev a few years ago. Most players peak at late 20's, waite is 23 y.o. GIVE HIM A BREAK. and he will not be traded.

I wrote a post in the players section regarding waitey because im just sick of people saying he should be traded and stuff, its a joke. These are tough times, so come on lets all stick with the talent and we will get there im sure! i just love this club so much and especially a guy like jarrad waite who is through and through carlton. We are all in this together, lets not have a go at the decent talented players. I truly believe he will be a great player in his career, lets just WAITE and see. Go blues!!!!!