TalkingCarlton :: View topic

I'm not sure if Denis would want to do that.

IMO, for him, it's either he's head coach or he isn't coach at all.

I think he'd rather resign than be demoted.

I think he'd rather resign than be demoted.

In my mind Pagan offers experience/discipline which can be great for developing young minds and bodies.

However, his weaknesses to me are his lack of flexibility and lack of modern day thinking.

If it were up to me (as the CFC Board) at the end of this season I would keep Pagan, but put the foot down and tell him we are completely restructuring the football department with an eye to development.

This means cutting Elshaugh and Liberatore and bringing in the best available assistant coaching talent.

Telling Pagan we will be using his strengths in the Football department, but taking away some of his power, maybe doing things like allowing an assistant coach to take match day responsibilities or sports scientists to take over training. We have got to take him out of his comfort zone.

Anyway, thats just me thinking aloud. It's probably rubbish, let me know. :wink:

The decision now is how do we retrieve the situation and move forward? We can bitch and moan which is good therapy but decisions have to be made.

The structure of the football department is crucial and hopefully quality decisions are imminent.
The ideal situation for me, give Denis a mentoring role.

Denis can sit back, offer advice and generally be there to assist when required.

He has survived he resignation of Wallace, the sacking of Rhode and now works under Eade. The fact that the new coaches kept him on when they took over speaks volumes for his abilities.

The difficulty increases with St Kilda and possibly Geelong looking for the best andidates. And dont kid ourselves, they are prime positions with stable and financial clubs.
The bonus for Carlton is the opportunity to have at least one year "learning on the job".
The other advantage is the expectation is less. St Kilda wont tolerate anything less than finals wins, same for geelong.
Carlton can offer the opportunity to grow a list with some of the best youngsters in the AFL with several more coming.

Ain't gonna happen unfortunately.

Too much like dancing with your sister for Denis.

GWS wrote:

Ain't gonna happen unfortunately.

Too much like dancing with your sister for Denis.

I agree.
But we must structure things on Carltons terms, not Denis'.
As he apparently said to Trout and Mulkearns, "the club is bigger than the individual".

The point is, we have an existing situation which we must restructure to gain maximum advantage. If Denis is staying, we must utilise him in a role which benefits Carlton, not Denis.

IMO, this is a viable option.
If he doesnt want to assist our restructure, he can walk. He knows where the door is.

Author:	Blue Vain [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Looking forward
How do we retrieve the situation from the past couple of weeks? I've been on the record from day 1 as not being a believer in Denis' suitability to coach our club. But also, I give him credit for attempting to change his ways, even if change was forced on him. Personally, I would have liked to see him move on but lets face it, we're struggling to do anything right at the moment. The decision now is how do we retrieve the situation and move forward? We can bitch and moan which is good therapy but decisions have to be made. The structure of the football department is crucial and hopefully quality decisions are imminent. The ideal situation for me, give Denis a mentoring role. Let him know that his time as a tactician is over but his experience and knowledge is crucial. Interview the best propective coaches around with the knowledge that an opportunity to be interactively groomed for the top job is on offer. The successful candidate can work with Denis to coach the team, communicate with the players and make list decisions. Denis' role will be advisory. At the end of 07, Denis can take a further step back or remove himself completely. The difficulty increases with St Kilda and possibly Geelong looking for the best andidates. And dont kid ourselves, they are prime positions with stable and financial clubs. The bonus for Carlton is the opportunity to have at least one year "learning on the job". The other advantage is the expectation is less. St Kilda wont tolerate anything less than finals wins, same for geelong. Carlton can offer the opportunity to grow a list with some of the best youngsters in the AFL with several more coming. The candidates? Obviously Mitchell, Longmire, McKenna and the usual suspects. One guy I'm really keen on but doesnt rate a lot of attention is Chris Bond. He fills most of the criteria you'd set out. He was a very average player who extracted the absolute maximum out of himself including an AFL B&F. He was traded to Freo where he became captain of the club. Both the above indicate leadership skills and absolute determination. Following retirement he coached his own VFL side (Werribee) for 2 years before the Bulldogs bought him aboard as a full time assistant. He has survived he resignation of Wallace, the sacking of Rhode and now works under Eade. The fact that the new coaches kept him on when they took over speaks volumes for his abilities. He has worked as an assistant for 6 years now and his media work is excellent. He's insightful and well measured and the fact he has been a Carlton person indicates he's have an understanding of the political landscape. Anything else would come down to interviewing the applicants. I'd also appoint a forward, midfield and defensive coach to sit in the box. Names like Rawlings, Ratten and Leppitsch spring to mind. Dempsey and Daniher can help out with training stuff if required but we need to get a lot more tactical understanding into the box. Denis can sit back, offer advice and generally be there to assist when required. Just ideas.

Author:	moshe25 [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:
At last, someone is talking sense. Awesome post BV. I've been struggling for 5 minutes to come up with something to add, but I can't. As an old mentor of mine once said "if you can't majorize, then plagurize!" So, in that spirit........... WHAT BV SAID!!!!!!

Author:	phoenix johnson [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm not sure if Denis would want to do that. IMO, for him, it's either he's head coach or he isn't coach at all. I think he'd rather resign than be demoted.

Author:	moshe25 [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:
phoenix johnson wrote: I'm not sure if Denis would want to do that. IMO, for him, it's either he's head coach or he isn't coach at all. I think he'd rather resign than be demoted. Damn.....

Author:	showbag [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:
phoenix johnson wrote: I think he'd rather resign than be demoted. win/win

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Looking forward http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12598	Page 1 of 1

Author:	gerry atric [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:
Well said BV. I don't like Sheedy but one thing he has been good at is using and discarding assistants while taking full credit for their work. Neale Daniher's picking apart of Carlton's centre square set up in 93 GF comes to mind. Probably won the Bombers the game but Sheeds saw fit to use NDs ideas and then take all the credit himself. The problem with recent events is that we still have DP but perhaps with a greater seige mentality. What we don't need is another false dawn like 04. I hope the message is that ladder position doesn't matter development does. I don't want us to rise to mediocrity I want us to develop to dominance. The problem for the board is that their budget seems to rely totally on membership numbers which are swayed by wins. We should find a way to weather our financial ills and look medium term with the team. In this regard the AFL cash is not a bad thing. The last thing I want is Gardiner and other hacks brought in for a few extra wins in 07 at the expense of finals in 09 and flag 2010-15 (inclusive!) Chris Bond call is a good one. Lets hope we don't try for a Big name for the sake of it when time comes to swap coaches. We badly need an imaginative strategic thinker on board. I think Terry and Gary Ds are doing their own jobs well, TD for his rapport with players and GD for his work on Aisake's ruck technique which is coming along nicely. But clearly the whole Match Committee needs a shake up and DP needs someone who challenges his view. Pagan is no fool, he will see the writing on the wall and may be able to reinvent himself, time will tell.

Author:	Sydney Blue [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:
BV I love some of the stuff you post on the site most of it is thought provoking and you always seem to think things out before you post. My question is this . assistant coaches seem to be in two moulds there are the ones who have their eyes set on the main job and use their time as an assistant to learn from the senoir coach and then there are those who make a career out of being an assistant and never really want the top job . Now if you were a career assistant would you want to spend your time with Pagan Alternatiely if you were trying to learn your craft and hopefully become a senoir coach would you want to be Pagans apprentice This is where I see where we are going to struggle to attract the likes of Bond - why go to Carlton under Pagan when he may be better off at the doggies under Eade

Author:	Jarusa [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:
Good post BV. I remember a few of us a few months ago were suggesting new assistants and the change of Pagan into more of a mentoring/director type role. It looked very unlikely back then but recent events have probably made it much more possible. I'm with gerry too, next year must be a full-on development year, no matter what. Hawthorn 2005.

Author:	JohnM [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:
Great post BV. Makes a lot of sense. Chris Bond would be good - even if only because he's short, and Denis seems to like a lack of height in his assistants.

Author:	Jarusa [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:
Now I remember. http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... p?p=275758 Jarusa 3rd May 2006 wrote: In my mind Pagan offers experience/discipline which can be great for developing young minds and bodies. However, his weaknesses to me are his lack of flexibility and lack of modern day thinking. If it were up to me (as the CFC Board) at the end of this season I would keep Pagan, but put the foot down and tell him we are completely restructuring the football department with an eye to development. This means cutting Elshaugh and Liberatore and bringing in the best available assistant coaching talent. Telling Pagan we will be using his strengths in the Football department, but taking away some of his power, maybe doing things like allowing an assistant coach to take match day responsibilities or sports scientists to take over training. We have got to take him out of his comfort zone. Anyway, thats just me thinking aloud. It's probably rubbish, let me know.

Author:	bondiblue [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:
Great stuff BV!! BV wrote Quote: The decision now is how do we retrieve the situation and move forward? We can bitch and moan which is good therapy but decisions have to be made. A positive and pragmatic attitude of our current situation is the only way forward. You can't see light through mud, and for this I congratulate you BV in your effort to find wins and a path forward for Carlton, especially given the situation you're faced with and despite your disapproval. There's a way through this and I think you're onto it. If you can't rid your team of Pagan you have at least looked at how he can work for us/ you. Quote: The structure of the football department is crucial and hopefully quality decisions are imminent. The ideal situation for me, give Denis a mentoring role. The idea of him mentoring is sound and fills gaps. It has been said many a time that he rarely spends time with the kids in one on ones, and this would give him the opportunity to bridge the gap. After all this is how his reputation started; moving the hearts and minds of kids in the U19's and reserves. This is an opportunity where he could use his assetts to good use. Quote: Denis can sit back, offer advice and generally be there to assist when required. Whilst I don't believe that he'll just sit back, whether instructed too or not, I do believe that this role seems more of a football director, and at his age he may just be ready for this in 2008, if not 2007, and of course depending on the strength of the new assistants. Strength in terms of capability and mental. Which leads us into Chris Bond. IMO, if Pagan was gone I would have thought of all the names suggested in other posts, Bond and Longmuir would be the go to coach the kids in the art of modern football, with my preference going to Bond, regardless of profile. No names and kids is a good story when it rises up a ladder. The main reason for my support of Bond comes from when I compare the Swans list with ours and the type of footy the Swans play and I don't think that they are the same, and therefore Longmuir may not have the right cattle to apply the craft he has developed whilst with the Swans, albeit useful, whereas Bond has no such history, but is a tremendous tactician and people manager, and he has worked with different team structures, therefore had more challenges to work through. As you said BV Quote: He has survived he resignation of Wallace, the sacking of Rhode and now works under Eade. The fact that the new coaches kept him on when they took over speaks volumes for his abilities. Attracting the best candidates to Carlton may be difficult given recent bad press, but you have thought through this well: Quote: The difficulty increases with St Kilda and possibly Geelong looking for the best andidates. And dont kid ourselves, they are prime positions with stable and financial clubs. The bonus for Carlton is the opportunity to have at least one year "learning on the job". The other advantage is the expectation is less. St Kilda wont tolerate anything less than finals wins, same for geelong. Carlton can offer the opportunity to grow a list with some of the best youngsters in the AFL with several more coming. In addition, with regards to Bond, Eade is set to sign on for another 3 years, and where does that leave Bond? There is a window of opportunity at Carlton for 2009, and he's chomping at the bit. I want asistants that want to come to Carlton. At the very least he's "familiar with our landscape". I wouldn't mind Mick Maguane in the other assistants role if the fallout at StKilda includes him. I have a few others on my radar, but the above two would do us fine, if possible. Modern day tacticians, thinkers and good enough to help mould/ develop the kids into a team, and counter the opposition. As for midfield, defensive, forward and ruck specialist coaches are concerned, I would love to see Ratten return for the midfield, not because he is Carlton but because he is capable, and not long out of the game, (Voss would be good too), and Bond and Maguane could add value in there too. We need all the development staff we can afford to develop 30 kids which in anyone's language is a handful. Can we afford it though? With the $1.5M loan (for cashflow) and the $6.5M over the next 5 years from the AFL, we should be able to afford some quality football department assetts. Yes I know about the debt, but with a little ray of sunshine; the new draftees, the existing kids, new assistants, some positive media and a few more wins as a result from the new inclusions, we should fair better with members and sponsors to look after loan commitments. Who knows other benefactors may come to the party too. The time is right to move with the times. Great food for thought BV, and very positive too, regardless if Pagan would buy it or not. I think you have sensed that it's not all Pagan's way anymore, and your opportunity to say "its this way or the highway" is a tactic that may work in your favour.

Author:	dannyboy [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:
Yep great post BV.

Author:	budzy [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Yeah we have to 'get on with it' at some stage I guess but I agree with pj. I don't think Denis is the type to sit back and 'mentor'. I reckon he can't help but be 'the man'. That's his nature I reckon.

Author:	GWS [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:
Ain't gonna happen unfortunately. Too much like dancing with your sister for Denis.

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Blue Vain [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:
GWS wrote: Ain't gonna happen unfortunately. Too much like dancing with your sister for Denis. I agree. But we must structure things on Carltons terms, not Denis'. As he apparently said to Trout and Mulkearns, "the club is bigger than the individual". The point is, we have an existing situation which we must restructure to gain maximum advantage. If Denis is staying, we must utilise him in a role which benefits Carlton, not Denis. IMO, this is a viable option. If he doesnt want to assist our restructure, he can walk. He knows where the door is.

Author:	GWS [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Vain wrote: GWS wrote: Ain't gonna happen unfortunately. Too much like dancing with your sister for Denis. I agree. But we must structure things on Carltons terms, not Denis'. As he apparently said to Trout and Mulkearns, "the club is bigger than the individual". The point is, we have an existing situation which we must restructure to gain maximum advantage. If Denis is staying, we must utilise him in a role which benefits Carlton, not Denis. IMO, this is a viable option. If he doesnt want to assist our restructure, he can walk. He knows where the door is. So how do you convince the most myopic board in the history of football that this is a viable option?

Author:	Blue Vain [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:
I cant. I can only offer suggestions. Hopefully someone reads it and thinks "hey, thats food for thought" but I'm also fully aware the chances are slim. But I cant sit back and leave them to their own devices. Nor can I just sit back and whinge about what could have been. I'll just offer thoughts to show that there are always options. Even if no one sees them.